Current Affairs EU In or Out

[edge]

Why does a free trade arrangement also demand free, unlimited, unquantifiable movement of people? I don't get the logic on having no figures. I like figures. Figures are good. Why should countries not be able to set their own net migration targets?

I support migration but I don't see how it ever became intertwined in trade deals. And I like knowing I can up or down my intake of migrants based on circumstance in any given year. That makes sense.

Last time there was a intertwine between trade and the large scale movement of people for economic reasons the UK put a stop to it, it was called slavery .

 

[The Esk]

I give up, you move your argument in the space of a couple of posts.

When asked why we shouldn't stay in the single market which is simpler than newly negotiated tariff based trade agreements, your answer was because of the freedom of movement of people.

When asked to confirm that was your objection to remaining in the single market you then say you are not too bothered about staying in it.

There's no logic to your argument.

I am very clear we should have stayed in the EU as the cost of membership is returned many times in the economic benefits we receive from membership, plus harmony, peace, security and improved human rights and worker rights for European citizens.

Not only can you not articulate a worthwhile plan for the future outside of the EU you can not be consisent as to the reasons for leaving.

 

[peteblue]

I give up, you move your argument in the space of a couple of posts.

When asked why we shouldn't stay in the single market which is simpler than newly negotiated tariff based trade agreements, your answer was because of the freedom of movement of people.

When asked to confirm that was your objection to remaining in the single market you then say you are not too bothered about staying in it.

There's no logic to your argument.

I am very clear we should have stayed in the EU as the cost of membership is returned many times in the economic benefits we receive from membership, plus harmony, peace, security and improved human rights and worker rights for European citizens.

Not only can you not articulate a worthwhile plan for the future outside of the EU you can not be consisent as to the reasons for leaving.

I'm sorry if you do not understand.......


We are leaving a political union

We wish to trade with them

It is only the EU who are fixated with freedom of movement of people

Trade does not require freedom of movement

I am quite relaxed about whatever trade deal we strike, and always have been.

I have been consistent on this since the beginning.......

Can you follow that

 

[ToffeeTim]

I give up, you move your argument in the space of a couple of posts.

When asked why we shouldn't stay in the single market which is simpler than newly negotiated tariff based trade agreements, your answer was because of the freedom of movement of people.

When asked to confirm that was your objection to remaining in the single market you then say you are not too bothered about staying in it.

There's no logic to your argument.

I am very clear we should have stayed in the EU as the cost of membership is returned many times in the economic benefits we receive from membership, plus harmony, peace, security and improved human rights and worker rights for European citizens.

Not only can you not articulate a worthwhile plan for the future outside of the EU you can not be consisent as to the reasons for leaving.

You're sound mate and I respect you but you never responded to the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined.

There's numerous reasons I voted leave. I don't like the EU courts. I think uncontrolled movement is dangerous and can lead to uncontrollable circumstances. I think political union is a farce. I think Britain is resilient. I think Britain is not similar to most of Europe's economies. I think we need well clear of anything which promotes the common currency. I think the EU is a failed and doomed experiment. I think a country the size of Britain should be able to trade on our own behalf with emerging and established economic powers. And finally there's was an element of gut in my decision. Just like there was in yours and everyone else in this country's.

The debate was fine here. No need to overreact. Time will tell who was correct. I'm fairly confident in Britain's long term wellbeing. I sense others want to see us suffer for agenda purposes especially in the labour party.

But what I would finally say is 99.9% of those who voted in june did so genuinely in a manner they thought was best for this great country. And that is the sign of strong democracy.

 

[peteblue]

You're sound mate and I respect you but you never responded to the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined.

There's numerous reasons I voted leave. I don't like the EU courts. I think uncontrolled movement is dangerous and can lead to uncontrollable circumstances. I think political union is a farce. I think Britain is resilient. I think Britain is not similar to most of Europe's economies. I think we need well clear of anything which promotes the common currency. I think the EU is a failed and doomed experiment. I think a country the size of Britain should be able to trade on our own behalf with emerging and established economic powers. And finally there's was an element of gut in my decision. Just like there was in yours and everyone else in this country's.

The debate was fine here. No need to overreact. Time will tell who was correct. I'm fairly confident in Britain's long term wellbeing. I sense others want to see us suffer for agenda purposes especially in the labour party.

But what I would finally say is 99.9% of those who voted in june did so genuinely in a manner they thought was best for this great country. And that is the sign of strong democracy.

Indeed......

 

[DualityNSNO]

The EU treated Greece with respect then?

How much respect do you need to give a country that buries themselves in as much debt as possible?

Been bailing them out of their own mess for about since it happened mate, threw more money there than they have anywhere else.

 

[The Esk]

You're sound mate and I respect you but you never responded to the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined

Not sure I've ever been asked tbh, but happy to give an answer.

The single market stands on 4 basic 'freedoms' the free movement of goods; workers; right of establishment and freedom to provide services; and finally free movement of capital.

For me, each freedom is an intrinsic part of the single market, none more important than the other. I firmly believe that. I've worked all over the world and outside of Europe had huge issues setting up businesses and determining my right to do business, employ people, create products and services etc etc. Yet in Europe none of those issues exist, and I believe that to be a huge competitive advantage for businesses but also employees as well.

Looking at the UK specifically it has been proven beyond all reasonabke doubt that immigration has been a huge economic benefit to the country. I'm not so naive as to not realise it also causes problems particularly in the provision of public services at a local level but I'd also say most public services could not function without an immigrant workforce.

So I'm very clear on the benefits of being in the EU, and even if not in the EU securing access and membership of the single market. Equally I am very clear as to the likely consequences of leaving, particularly when there is no apparent strategy for post Brexit Britain.

If the single largest objection is immigration and the vote to leave is to bring an apparent halt to it, my concern is that we will pay a huge price for it economically, and also in terms of social cohesion. To me it sends out all the wrong signals as a nation and moves far away from the compassionate and caring nation I believe we should be.

I can't be any clearer than that.

 

[peteblue]

Not sure I've ever been asked tbh, but happy to give an answer.

The single market stands on 4 basic 'freedoms' the free movement of goods; workers; right of establishment and freedom to provide services; and finally free movement of capital.

For me, each freedom is an intrinsic part of the single market, none more important than the other. I firmly believe that. I've worked all over the world and outside of Europe had huge issues setting up businesses and determining my right to do business, employ people, create products and services etc etc. Yet in Europe none of those issues exist, and I believe that to be a huge competitive advantage for businesses but also employees as well.

Looking at the UK specifically it has been proven beyond all reasonabke doubt that immigration has been a huge economic benefit to the country. I'm not so naive as to not realise it also causes problems particularly in the provision of public services at a local level but I'd also say most public services could not function without an immigrant workforce.

So I'm very clear on the benefits of being in the EU, and even if not in the EU securing access and membership of the single market. Equally I am very clear as to the likely consequences of leaving, particularly when there is no apparent strategy for post Brexit Britain.

If the single largest objection is immigration and the vote to leave is to bring an apparent halt to it, my concern is that we will pay a huge price for it economically, and also in terms of social cohesion. To me it sends out all the wrong signals as a nation and moves far away from the compassionate and caring nation I believe we should be.

I can't be any clearer than that.

Once again, you've just told us you wish to remain in the EU, we get that, now just answer the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined. Having asked you a question about why the EU would wish to 'punish' the UK at the WTO about two dozen times without receiving an answer, I'm not really expecting you to answer this new one either.....

 

[ilikecheese]

Once again, you've just told us you wish to remain in the EU, we get that, now just answer the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined. Having asked you a question about why the EU would wish to 'punish' the UK at the WTO about two dozen times without receiving an answer, I'm not really expecting you to answer this new one either.....

He kinda spelled it out very clearly though.

 

[bring the ghost on]

There's numerous reasons I voted leave. I don't like the EU courts. I think uncontrolled movement is dangerous and can lead to uncontrollable circumstances. I think political union is a farce. I think Britain is resilient. I think Britain is not similar to most of Europe's economies. I think we need well clear of anything which promotes the common currency. I think the EU is a failed and doomed experiment. I think a country the size of Britain should be able to trade on our own behalf with emerging and established economic powers. And finally there's was an element of gut in my decision. Just like there was in yours and everyone else in this country's.

I think you raise very valid concerns in this post and I thought about the same concerns when voting, however I always came back to the same conclusion - we had such a privileged position in the EU that most of the concerns didn't really apply. We didn't have the common currency, we opted out of the "ever closer union", we had a good strong position, we reaped the economic benefits.

Really, the only things we had to put up with were the free movement of people and accepting certain laws. I personally feel that both are blown out of proportion in terms of their so-called negative influence - the pros of both outweighed the cons.

Anyway, we're leaving and we need to make the most of it. I would personally accept free movement of people in a heartbeat if it meant entering back into the common market though.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Once again, you've just told us you wish to remain in the EU, we get that, now just answer the question of why free movement and free trade need be intertwined. Having asked you a question about why the EU would wish to 'punish' the UK at the WTO about two dozen times without receiving an answer, I'm not really expecting you to answer this new one either.....

The question I would ask is - would the bureaucrats in Brussels grant us access to the common market without forcing us to accept the free movement of people, knowing that other countries will be thinking "well, we also want all of the benefit without contributing anything".

The common market was set up in that manner by the founders of the European project and I think they will be reluctant to give Britain special treatment. It would be brilliant for us if we could get full access without the free movement of people applying, but I suspect not possible.

 

[peteblue]

He kinda spelled it out very clearly though.

Of course he did.....

 

[ToffeeTim]

Not sure I've ever been asked tbh, but happy to give an answer.

The single market stands on 4 basic 'freedoms' the free movement of goods; workers; right of establishment and freedom to provide services; and finally free movement of capital.

For me, each freedom is an intrinsic part of the single market, none more important than the other. I firmly believe that. I've worked all over the world and outside of Europe had huge issues setting up businesses and determining my right to do business, employ people, create products and services etc etc. Yet in Europe none of those issues exist, and I believe that to be a huge competitive advantage for businesses but also employees as well.

Looking at the UK specifically it has been proven beyond all reasonabke doubt that immigration has been a huge economic benefit to the country. I'm not so naive as to not realise it also causes problems particularly in the provision of public services at a local level but I'd also say most public services could not function without an immigrant workforce.

So I'm very clear on the benefits of being in the EU, and even if not in the EU securing access and membership of the single market. Equally I am very clear as to the likely consequences of leaving, particularly when there is no apparent strategy for post Brexit Britain.

If the single largest objection is immigration and the vote to leave is to bring an apparent halt to it, my concern is that we will pay a huge price for it economically, and also in terms of social cohesion. To me it sends out all the wrong signals as a nation and moves far away from the compassionate and caring nation I believe we should be.
I can't be any clearer than that.

My point is that it's wrong to suggest supporting controlled migration means you're against the concept of immigration. I think our immigration should be controlled. It should be based on allowing all who obtain employment in the UK, no matter where they hail from (EU or further afield), from being granted full rights to live and work and here. And, then secondly it should prioritise asylum claims from genuinely distressed families, and in particular children, above just random europeans coming here simply because they can. Uncontrolled migration is dangerous. Not all migration is good. But all economies, and societies at large, need migration. I feel there's a balance to be struck and it can't be from within the single market.

 

[ToffeeTim]

I think you raise very valid concerns in this post and I thought about the same concerns when voting, however I always came back to the same conclusion - we had such a privileged position in the EU that most of the concerns didn't really apply. We didn't have the common currency, we opted out of the "ever closer union", we had a good strong position, we reaped the economic benefits.

Really, the only things we had to put up with were the free movement of people and accepting certain laws. I personally feel that both are blown out of proportion in terms of their so-called negative influence - the pros of both outweighed the cons.

Anyway, we're leaving and we need to make the most of it. I would personally accept free movement of people in a heartbeat if it meant entering back into the common market though.

I would add that I don't trust the intentions of the unelected Brussels elite. Full integration will be catostrophic and they know this, but due to their vested (monetary) interests, they will continue to drive this agenda.

 

[peteblue]

The question I would ask is - would the bureaucrats in Brussels grant us access to the common market without forcing us to accept the free movement of people, knowing that other countries will be thinking "well, we also want all of the benefit without contributing anything".

The common market was set up in that manner by the founders of the European project and I think they will be reluctant to give Britain special treatment. It would be brilliant for us if we could get full access without the free movement of people applying, but I suspect not possible.

And that's fine. So we just do a trade deal, and don't need to include freedom of movement because we are not in the single Market. Just a trade link between the EU and one of it's largest trading partners.....