Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon

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Grifter grifting.



Arrest the bugger.



Holly Valance?!

Australias Sweetheart Holly Valance?!?!!

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1: Thats my point, I'm not 'attacking' anyone here you know :)

How has Trump been the only one brought up on this charge?

As you say, no-one else democrat or republican comes to mind...or even Mr Smith.

Reason being that the charge(s) was ridiculous.

That is why many wealthy entrpreneurs are looking at this and thinking "am i next".
The two statements "How has Trump been the only one brought up on this charge?" and "no-one else democrat or republican comes to mind...or even Mr Smith." are not the same thing. Just because neither of us can think of someone charged/convicted does not make it true!

So I decided to do a brief google search and straight away these two convictions came up
Drillman and his co-conspirators provided the lenders with fictitious documents, including purchase and sale contracts with inflated purchase prices.

“Tyler Ross falsified corporate records to deceive lenders by fraudulently inflating the income of ROCO properties,”

Now, I am not a lawyer (please jump in if there are some on this thread!) but those sound similar to the actions that Trump was also charged with.



2: The judge seemed totally clueless. From property valuations, tax laws and most amusingly the fact he even distrusted the significant amount of cash placed into a bank -- a US one no less -- showing concern that the funds could me lost in the markets :)

On the penthouse topic, some things for you to mull over:

A: The penthouse was owned by one of the biggest celebrities in the US, one of the most well known in the world. This carries a premium -- just as buying autographs, or owning the home of Elvis, Michael Jackson or whoever -- some people would pay above asking.

B: As its a branded residence (the brand being Trump) there is a 30% average premium across the market. Thats globally recognised.

C: Trump admitted the figures were 'loose' and 'guesstimates'. When you go to a bank for a loan against property they will themselves appraise the value. In this case they didnt -- ask yourself why? Also, ask yourself, why didnt they complain when the democrats brought this up? Why did they want to continue doing business with Trump and his companies?

The reason is they wanted the business. I have a interest in real estate and its different case by case e.g you can find places that calculate based on land value.

Others of course have premiums based on unit size, views, floor, branding and you can also value as a business based upon revenue (rent and future growth).

I believe in NYC it is typically done on comparable sales prices (same as California) but in this case none are comparable because his carries a premium.

If you watch the agents on the NYC & LA property shows you will frequently see sellers overprice their units. Despite knowing the comparables -- developers also frequently price units vastly higher than the building next door.

This is why its usually a misdemeanor in the US as everyone does it...everyone overvalues their belongings.

The whole thing looks a total mess to me and clearly (as he admitted) his figures were incorrect based on the letter of the law -- but why didnt the bank appraiser do their job? I can pick out a few places where i live and know their values...to a very close degree.

Why didnt the bank negotiate or argue?

Why havent the other developers and home owners that have overvalued property been brought up on similar charges?

That is why I think it is totally ridiculous. From it being the political oppsition driving it, to the bizarre and clueless judge to the charges -- its a joke.
Mulling on point A - I do not deny that it being owned by Trump might make its price/sq foot higher but I don't believe the owner's celebrity status actually makes it larger by almost 20,000 feet. This isn't Dr Who's Tardis we are talking about here. And the value seems so wildly off, especially to anyone who claims to know New York real estate and look at comparable pricing.
https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf
Valuations of this property were calculated using objectively false numbers. For example, the apartment was valued as being 30,000 square feet when it was actually 10,996 square feet. As a result, in 2015, the apartment was valued at $327 million in total, or $29,738 per square foot. That price was absurd given the fact that at that point only one apartment in New York City had ever sold for even $100 million, at a price per square foot of less than $10,000, and that sale was in a newly built, ultra-tall tower. In the 30 year-old Trump Tower, the record sale at that time was a mere $16.5 million at a price of less than $4,500 per square foot

According to a later court filing by the AG, Trump's chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg "admitted that the apartment's value had been overstated by 'give or take' $200 million"


Eh but what is $200 million between friends or lenders?

On point B if it is so globally recognized then why did Trump withhold appraisals? The quote below are from the court transcript on the judges ruling that @Xizor helpfully provided
"Bender later learned that the Trump Organization had withheld records, such as appraisals, that Mazars had requested while preparing the compilations, leading Mazars to conclude that the Trump Organization had falsely represented that it had complied fully and truthfully with all inquiries from Mazars. Mazars subsequently terminated its relationship with the Trump Organization. "

And why did they not use bank ordered appraisal values, if this premium is so well recognized and lie about where they had got their own valuation?
https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf

40 Wall Street, New York, NY The Trump Organization owns a ground lease at 40 Wall Street, meaning it holds a leasehold interest in the land and buildings on the land, but pays rent to the owner. The Trump Organization received a bank-ordered appraisal for the commercial property at 40 Wall Street that calculated a value for the property of $220 million as of November 1, 2012. Yet in the statement that year and the next year (2013), 40 Wall Street was valued at $527 million and $530 million — more than twice the value calculated by the independent, professional appraisers. Even more egregiously, those increased valuations were attributed to information obtained from the same professional appraiser who valued the building at just over $200 million.

On point C I think the banks were foolish to not do there own checking (iirc the major lender was Deutsche Bank, not doing their own due diligence might have been one reason for their bankruptcy!) however two wrongs don't make a right - it does not absolve Trump from having submitted inflated or fraudulent figures, especially since he signed documents that he would provided accurate figures.
"Bender made absolutely clear that under the terms of the engagement for compilation services, the client was responsible for ensuring that assets were stated at their “estimated current values,” and that Weisselberg was responsible for determining which GAAP departures were identified and disclosed. TT 237-238, 319-320. The engagement letters, signed by a combination of Weisselberg, Donald Trump, and Donald Trump, Jr., confirmed this by unambiguously acknowledging that Donald Trump, through his trustees, was responsible for the preparation and fair presentation of the personal financial information in accordance with GAAP. See, e.g., PX 741. "


3: I believe that an NDA is between 2 partys. Once both sign -- its set in stone. Like giving your word.Yes, in the case of Weinstein the crimes were extremely serious...in murder or such situations where its an extreme level of law breaking there can be a case for a judge breaking an NDA.
If however, a judge is going to deem any NDAs irrelevant on a whim then it is ridiculous and any entrepreneur will look at NYC and wonder...

This judge did not deem NDAs irrelevant - I don't know how you get to that conclusion? The details of the NDA were detailed in an earlier court case - the one where Cohen admitted to fraudulently getting a personal loan to pay the $130k payment.

And NDAs are not set in stone, if you break one you can be charged and face penalties. However both Cohen and Trump have said they will not try to enforce the NDA so I don't see how in any way, shape or form you can claim this particular judge was "breaking an NDA"
President Donald Trump said he will not attempt to enforce a nondisclosure agreement blocking porn star Stormy Daniels from revealing details of her alleged affair with him, according to papers filed Saturday. The statement, filed in Central California federal court, says that Trump has "never taken the position that he was a party" to the NDA with Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford. All of the parties agree that Trump never signed the settlement agreement, according to the filing, which Daniels is seeking to invalidate.

4: If lets say Trump didnt sleep with the porn star but simply paid her off as he could afford to and it would harm his reputation if she broadcast her lies publically and also upset his wife...

...perhaps he chose to do that?

I believe this isnt a one off and many others have done the same.

You believe he did, you also believe the other chap did yet one was punished.

A porn star was first providing details (NDA?) and then now in the trial she inferred that she was in pain or suchlike afterwards....its just not believable to me.

The point being that there is a paper trail of payments (or not) doesnt prove the action.
OK let us run with the unlikely scenario he didn't sleep with her.

But "it would harm his reputation if she broadcast her lies publically" is kind of the point. Trump was not charged with paying a porn star, irrespective of whether he slept with her or not . As the Assistant DA said in his opening statement to the jurors “The defendant, Donald Trump, orchestrated a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election. Then, he covered up that criminal conspiracy by lying in his New York business records over and over and over again.”

If Trump had paid Daniels 130k in 2006 when the alleged affair happened as far as I am aware it would have been entirely legal. Although if Cohen had still used fraud to get the money and the reimbursement had still been for "legal bills" then I think there still would have been charges.

But the fact he only wanted to pay Daniels when he was running for president changes it from "he's doing it to avoid upsetting his wife" to "he's doing it to avoid upsetting potential voters" ie corrupting the 2016 presidential election.

Especially since the timing was after the Access Hollywood tape when he on video stated "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful women. I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. When you are a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ‘em by the [Poor language removed]. You can do anything.”

The paper trail does not prove Trump slept with Daniels, although given how tight he is with money I bet the jury thought it did. But it was evidence of altering business records.
 
Like a 20 year experienced Democrat banker who also cant see any victim in the case and mentions


"I was a banker for more than 20 years. My positions included commercial loan officer and vice president. Without exception, for anyone applying for a large loan who shows real estate holdings as a major asset, appraisals are required.

Since the banks in question were paid, I fail to understand who the victims are in this case"
Err, so the guy is admitting that Trump committed fraud, just that he shouldn't be punished harshly because he fails to understand who were the victims???

Since when is "the banks were paid, so who are the victims" ever been a legal theory? Since you keep on asking others to post examples perhaps you should show where this novel legal approach has worked?

It certainly didn't for Cohen, Trump lawyer - the bank got his loan payments but because he lied when he said Daniels payment was for (iirc) a home remodel project it still landed him in jail.

And it is pretty easy to figure out some victims - banks allocation for loans is not infinite. Perhaps by overinflating his wealth and income he got a loan in preference to some other person(s) who were honest with their appraisals? I appreciate that I am engaging in speculation here but I feel it is a slightly more realistic scenario than one involving boats, sharks and batteries.

And as the judge stated "Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud. "
 
Err, so the guy is admitting that Trump committed fraud, just that he shouldn't be punished harshly because he fails to understand who were the victims???

Since when is "the banks were paid, so who are the victims" ever been a legal theory? Since you keep on asking others to post examples perhaps you should show where this novel legal approach has worked?

It certainly didn't for Cohen, Trump lawyer - the bank got his loan payments but because he lied when he said Daniels payment was for (iirc) a home remodel project it still landed him in jail.

And it is pretty easy to figure out some victims - banks allocation for loans is not infinite. Perhaps by overinflating his wealth and income he got a loan in preference to some other person(s) who were honest with their appraisals? I appreciate that I am engaging in speculation here but I feel it is a slightly more realistic scenario than one involving boats, sharks and batteries.

And as the judge stated "Timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace. Indeed, the common excuse that “everybody does it” is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud. "
We had husband-and-wife clients, back in my lending days, who ran a local government agency.

They were defrauding the agency by siphoning money out of it. We knew they had to be, because in no universe could they afford to stay ahead of their personal debts, not even by running them up as fast as they were. We had their taxes, so we knew there had to be unreported income somewhere.

About a year later, after I moved to another office, I read in the paper that they had been arrested for exactly that. They went up the river for a good long while. They didn't go up the river on our account, because they reported their legal income accurately.

If they had inflated their assets or income, we could have gone after them for criminal charges and restitution. We never would have, because it was small enough potatoes not to bother, but once things reach seven digits it becomes worth the legal fees to pursue.

The point of filing charges is in fact to get the DA to order what amounts to free, admissible legal and investigative work on the civil case. In general, lenders do not file charges on small cases because it's public record, and bad publicity. They would much rather use the threat of filing charges as a cudgel to force restitution outside the legal system.
 
The two statements "How has Trump been the only one brought up on this charge?" and "no-one else democrat or republican comes to mind...or even Mr Smith." are not the same thing. Just because neither of us can think of someone charged/convicted does not make it true!

So I decided to do a brief google search and straight away these two convictions came up
Drillman and his co-conspirators provided the lenders with fictitious documents, including purchase and sale contracts with inflated purchase prices.

“Tyler Ross falsified corporate records to deceive lenders by fraudulently inflating the income of ROCO properties,”

Now, I am not a lawyer (please jump in if there are some on this thread!) but those sound similar to the actions that Trump was also charged with.




Mulling on point A - I do not deny that it being owned by Trump might make its price/sq foot higher but I don't believe the owner's celebrity status actually makes it larger by almost 20,000 feet. This isn't Dr Who's Tardis we are talking about here. And the value seems so wildly off, especially to anyone who claims to know New York real estate and look at comparable pricing.
https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf
Valuations of this property were calculated using objectively false numbers. For example, the apartment was valued as being 30,000 square feet when it was actually 10,996 square feet. As a result, in 2015, the apartment was valued at $327 million in total, or $29,738 per square foot. That price was absurd given the fact that at that point only one apartment in New York City had ever sold for even $100 million, at a price per square foot of less than $10,000, and that sale was in a newly built, ultra-tall tower. In the 30 year-old Trump Tower, the record sale at that time was a mere $16.5 million at a price of less than $4,500 per square foot

According to a later court filing by the AG, Trump's chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg "admitted that the apartment's value had been overstated by 'give or take' $200 million"


Eh but what is $200 million between friends or lenders?

On point B if it is so globally recognized then why did Trump withhold appraisals? The quote below are from the court transcript on the judges ruling that @Xizor helpfully provided
"Bender later learned that the Trump Organization had withheld records, such as appraisals, that Mazars had requested while preparing the compilations, leading Mazars to conclude that the Trump Organization had falsely represented that it had complied fully and truthfully with all inquiries from Mazars. Mazars subsequently terminated its relationship with the Trump Organization. "

And why did they not use bank ordered appraisal values, if this premium is so well recognized and lie about where they had got their own valuation?
https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf

40 Wall Street, New York, NY The Trump Organization owns a ground lease at 40 Wall Street, meaning it holds a leasehold interest in the land and buildings on the land, but pays rent to the owner. The Trump Organization received a bank-ordered appraisal for the commercial property at 40 Wall Street that calculated a value for the property of $220 million as of November 1, 2012. Yet in the statement that year and the next year (2013), 40 Wall Street was valued at $527 million and $530 million — more than twice the value calculated by the independent, professional appraisers. Even more egregiously, those increased valuations were attributed to information obtained from the same professional appraiser who valued the building at just over $200 million.

On point C I think the banks were foolish to not do there own checking (iirc the major lender was Deutsche Bank, not doing their own due diligence might have been one reason for their bankruptcy!) however two wrongs don't make a right - it does not absolve Trump from having submitted inflated or fraudulent figures, especially since he signed documents that he would provided accurate figures.
"Bender made absolutely clear that under the terms of the engagement for compilation services, the client was responsible for ensuring that assets were stated at their “estimated current values,” and that Weisselberg was responsible for determining which GAAP departures were identified and disclosed. TT 237-238, 319-320. The engagement letters, signed by a combination of Weisselberg, Donald Trump, and Donald Trump, Jr., confirmed this by unambiguously acknowledging that Donald Trump, through his trustees, was responsible for the preparation and fair presentation of the personal financial information in accordance with GAAP. See, e.g., PX 741. "




This judge did not deem NDAs irrelevant - I don't know how you get to that conclusion? The details of the NDA were detailed in an earlier court case - the one where Cohen admitted to fraudulently getting a personal loan to pay the $130k payment.

And NDAs are not set in stone, if you break one you can be charged and face penalties. However both Cohen and Trump have said they will not try to enforce the NDA so I don't see how in any way, shape or form you can claim this particular judge was "breaking an NDA"
President Donald Trump said he will not attempt to enforce a nondisclosure agreement blocking porn star Stormy Daniels from revealing details of her alleged affair with him, according to papers filed Saturday. The statement, filed in Central California federal court, says that Trump has "never taken the position that he was a party" to the NDA with Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford. All of the parties agree that Trump never signed the settlement agreement, according to the filing, which Daniels is seeking to invalidate.


OK let us run with the unlikely scenario he didn't sleep with her.

But "it would harm his reputation if she broadcast her lies publically" is kind of the point. Trump was not charged with paying a porn star, irrespective of whether he slept with her or not . As the Assistant DA said in his opening statement to the jurors “The defendant, Donald Trump, orchestrated a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election. Then, he covered up that criminal conspiracy by lying in his New York business records over and over and over again.”

If Trump had paid Daniels 130k in 2006 when the alleged affair happened as far as I am aware it would have been entirely legal. Although if Cohen had still used fraud to get the money and the reimbursement had still been for "legal bills" then I think there still would have been charges.

But the fact he only wanted to pay Daniels when he was running for president changes it from "he's doing it to avoid upsetting his wife" to "he's doing it to avoid upsetting potential voters" ie corrupting the 2016 presidential election.

Especially since the timing was after the Access Hollywood tape when he on video stated "You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful women. I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. When you are a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ‘em by the [Poor language removed]. You can do anything.”

The paper trail does not prove Trump slept with Daniels, although given how tight he is with money I bet the jury thought it did. But it was evidence of altering business records.

The examples you found are not similar to the Trump case. In the first they've made a premeditated plan to falsify records even prior to purchase, those being on even the purchase price. In the second, they falsified their entire company records from day one.

On the other points, where are the bank appraisals? Who is the victim?

With the online post from the guy saying he'd been a banker for 20 years, he's correct.

Two party's entered into an agreement. No terms of the agreement were broken with all payments made on time -- he's admitted to being a democrat and given his opinion along with that fact. There is no victim.

As for the porn star, again its the same situation. There's no evidence to prove he slept with her (although she was allowed to go veer massively off topic to attempt to embarass him) and the person who was found to have actually paid her off has a grudge against Trump.

The whole thing is fishy at best and no one else but this democrat & AG-- the democrats clearly pushed the AG and the judge to take Trump down by all means -- chose to take anything further.

If both cases look like ducks, smell like ducks and walk and talk like ducks...they're probably ducks.

The fact of the matter is that it was only the democrat party that weaponised the legal system -- not a single other person or group wanted to proceed -- so they forced the issue themselves.
 
The examples you found are not similar to the Trump case. In the first they've made a premeditated plan to falsify records even prior to purchase, those being on even the purchase price. In the second, they falsified their entire company records from day one.

Two party's entered into an agreement. No terms of the agreement were broken with all payments made on time -- he's admitted to being a democrat and given his opinion along with that fact. There is no victim.
No.

Falsifying assets and income is done to induce the bank to offer a lower interest rate, or to get the loan at all. If the bank received accurate information, odds are it would have made a different decision.

If it offered a lower interest rate, it was cheated out of the correct pricing, and the amount of lost interest income. If it offered a loan at all, it was cheated on risk management. Whether the terms of the loan were honored is immaterial. It's fraud by statute, and for a reason.
 
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