Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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I think some of that pushback is because people are worried that, in general, humans aren’t great at assessing risk.

I personally prefer full disclosure but human reactions, especially from those with low trust in governments/scientists, mean that many will perceive the risks of the vaccine as much higher than they are and it will lead to overall many more families being left grieving.

There is certainly a balancing act I agree and as I said I have nothing against the vaccines themselves - I'll personally never get another but I literally force my arl fella to get his boosters as he has diabetes.

People need to know the facts but also not just listen to everything they're told because not everything is black and white.
 
Just in case there's still doubt...


Effect of Ivermectin vs Placebo on Time to Sustained Recovery in Outpatients With Mild to Moderate COVID-19 - JAMA

Conclusions and Relevance Among outpatients with mild to moderate COVID-19, treatment with ivermectin, compared with placebo, did not significantly improve time to recovery. These findings do not support the use of ivermectin in patients with mild to moderate COVID-19.
Think this study is by the same authors but a larger dose of ivermectin and for longer - still no improvement over placebo.
 
Good luck on getting a response. Anytime he’s called out on something challenging he disappears from the thread for a few weeks then comes back in pretending nothing happened.
He’s a parody of a coward
You`re like Spibey out of Dances with Wolves hating on @ForeverBlue92 because he`s turned Indian. He`s free while you`re still a slave.
Getting your head around anything is impossible because you suffer from cognitive dissonance due to indoctrination and conditioning by the BBC and your tormentor/leader Boris Johnson.
 
propeller-hat.gif
 
Situation in China sounds very bleak now that they've stopped pursuing zero-Covid


Hopefully they can make safe progress on the nasal vaccine. As an aside I wonder if the method of intake being an aerosol rather than an injection would make a dent in the anti-vax community. No logical reason for it to, but as we can witness in this thread they aren't the most objective group of people.
 
You`re like Spibey out of Dances with Wolves hating on @ForeverBlue92 because he`s turned Indian. He`s free while you`re still a slave.
Getting your head around anything is impossible because you suffer from cognitive dissonance due to indoctrination and conditioning by the BBC and your tormentor/leader Boris Johnson.
Sorry bud.
You got anymore freethinking vids to watch? Maybe ‘don’t believe the scientists, asbestos smells delicious’
 
Well said.

I took particular umbrage with the claim funding would be denied politically in the UK. The UK has a diverse and complex health and medical funding field. The UK Government funding bodies are independent and deploy robust and transparent assessment processes.

For instance: https://www.ukri.org/about-us/how-we-are-governed/our-relationship-with-the-government/


Not to mention the array of indeoendent trusts and charities that fund research (see Wellcome, British Heart Foundation).

If someone isn't getting funded its usually because its a poorly written / justified bid or badly designed research.

Indeed, I've lost track of the amount of academics who claim there's an agenda against them or that they're "too radical" to be funded. They're really not and there's usually someone researching in their field with a grant. Simply, your idea and study design was crap.

Harsh, but fair ?
Davey, I'm not going to let you call me a liar or slander me by mischaracterizing my positions to suit your narrative. If you want to let it lie, then let it lie. Don't decide to get additional digs in after we agree to disagree.

I get where you're coming from. I used to believe that things like independent, external review keep the process pure, but then I spent time inside the belly of the beast. In practice, they work about as well as a board of directors does in a corporation. The existence of either suggests that there's a problem, and because people are constrained by time (and corruptible) they only commit so much effort to either. It's certainly better than not having them, but it's like putting a filter on a cigarette. It doesn't solve the underlying problem.

You are 100% correct that most studies denied funding are poor. This is not true with respect to all of them. Everything that goes on in today's scientific process, from funding to publication to tenure, is the output of an entirely political process. What you are missing is that the politics that are relevant are usually internal to the field, and involve future funding and prestige.

If you want other people in medicine to tell you about the problems in the field, go here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3294645/

I explain the problems differently than they do because I see them differently. My background is conflict theory, so I see the empirical problems they observe and apply conflict theory to explain why we observe them. What I'm telling you about the funding problem is more or less a first-order derivation from the problems those authors describe. If science is a pyramid scheme where most of the rewards attribute to the few, and the few are influential over what gets funded (and they are), then it follows that they will use that power whenever feasible to discourage competing ideas to protect that stream of rewards.

I assure you that they do. It just doesn't get talked about publicly, because when people try to talk about it they get treated the way you treated me. You dismiss the argument out of hand because there are so many liars in the dataset of non-funded research that you mistakenly infer that everyone is a liar.

The whole system is deeply flawed. Many people inside it will admit this to one another, but rarely to an outsider. The journal review process is never double-blind, because both the person submitting the paper and the reviewers know good and darned well who they're dealing with. I have been on both ends of that one. Who gets tenure where is the result of the interaction of political alliances and the volume of research dollars brought in. These processes all have a substantial amount of logrolling that an external observer can never see. Funding is then determined by the people on committees who do business in secret, and are comprised of people who brought home the most bacon and those expected to do so in the future.

If you want to see an argument for why believing science is pure when making policy, even if you assume all of the above problems away, I'll send you here: https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/why-science-cant-fix-politics/ That link will also tell you that science is inherently politicized, but it does a particularly poor job of explaining why if you ask me.
 
I understand where you are coming from but don't agree with all you are saying. Hard data that is well-interpreted is largely the only way we can determine things like efficacy of vaccines, their side-effects, and other issues. In the case of vaccines, they have been needlessly and a priori politicized by anti-vax groups; these people are not interested in debate, data, or analysis--they simply have a bias against vaccines and do all in their power to spread misinformation against them.

Apart from the anti-vax folks, there is robust responsible studies and there are shoddy/preliminary studies. This is where some need for scientific understanding and scientific expertise comes into play. More simply, if I understand what you are saying, I don't think any responsible and conscientious scientist has been politically ostracized for publishing studies that run against a given political grain (e.g., publishing a study that shows that Covid vaccines cause lots of excess deaths); instead, the scientists who publish these things are largely ostracized by the scientific community because their study has been shown to be careless/poorly executed/poorly interpreted or the scientist themself is pursuing their own political agenda (e.g., anti-vax sympathizer, seeking self-aggrandizement, or purposely publishing in pay-to-play journals that don't have peer review). These shoddy researchers, of course, then claim they are being politically silenced when they are actually being scientifically silenced. As another example, race science is massively politicized, in that people get very uncomfortable with the idea that some ethnic groups/races might differ genetically, cognitively, or personality-wise. However, the politicization occurs here because the science behind these studies is very shoddy and not robust. And thus when a journal rejects yet another manuscript by a shoddy "race realist" they are doing so because it's a shitty manuscript not because it's politically taboo. But of course the race scientist can then claim "politics are at play" and "I'm being silenced by the PC crowd" etc., etc., when in fact they are being silenced because they produce low-quality, poorly executed research. [And more often than not, these people often have been found to make curiously racist-adjacent statements on social media and elsewhere, thereby giving circumstantial evidence that they, not the scientific community at large, is pursuing a political agenda.]

In the case of Paige Harden, who studies the role that genetics plays in determining life outcomes (and she is a progressive/liberal), she did receive tons of push-back on twitter from liberals/progressives who don't like her nodding toward genetic determinism (even though she emphasizes luck over determinism). Much of it was mean-spirited, unscientific, and mostly name-calling--a case of the left-eating-the-left. That said, many scientists have critiqued her analyses on more scientific grounds and shown it to be lacking. More generally, politics hasn't necessarily limited her research (she has many admirers, including me) and she continues to publish responsible studies. It's more that her research has alternative interpretations (that hinges on mostly technical stuff like polygenic risk scores suffering from severe collider bias, and that the Genome-wide association studies that she relies on, have too many hidden population stratifications to be robust) and thus doesn't necessary qualify as first-rate, in the sense that there are still a few unknowns.
You're correct that almost all anti-vax arguments are nonsense. You are not correct about the political character of the scientific process, and the resulting problems that are introduced. It's the one argument the political right makes that has validity about the whole thing. They're just bad at making it, for many of the reasons that Davey outlined in his reply. A lot of the actors on their side of the fence have their hands out to those with agendas lacking empirical support, and produce poor outputs as a consequence. It doesn't follow that the general criticism is invalid.

As far as Paige Harden goes, the same types of criticisms have been levelled at Piketty, and that's the most influential work of the last decade in economics. Those criticisms are business as usual in the social sciences. Some of them are quite valid. Others are obviously self-defense on the part of those whose own prestige and funding would be threatened by general acceptance of his/her claims.

I can't think of a highly influential work in social science without empirical problems, and clarifying those complaints is how a large fraction of social science research gets funding. By taking Ford's money to do product research and tacking on their own political attitude questions, Converse et al ended up providing the rationale for the next generation (if not two) of political opinion research, as people tried to prove them wrong on specific points with greater and lesser degrees of success.
 
Davey, I'm not going to let you call me a liar or slander me by mischaracterizing my positions to suit your narrative. If you want to let it lie, then let it lie. Don't decide to get additional digs in after we agree to disagree.

I get where you're coming from. I used to believe that things like independent, external review keep the process pure, but then I spent time inside the belly of the beast. In practice, they work about as well as a board of directors does in a corporation. The existence of either suggests that there's a problem, and because people are constrained by time (and corruptible) they only commit so much effort to either. It's certainly better than not having them, but it's like putting a filter on a cigarette. It doesn't solve the underlying problem.

You are 100% correct that most studies denied funding are poor. This is not true with respect to all of them. Everything that goes on in today's scientific process, from funding to publication to tenure, is the output of an entirely political process. What you are missing is that the politics that are relevant are usually internal to the field, and involve future funding and prestige.

If you want other people in medicine to tell you about the problems in the field, go here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3294645/

I explain the problems differently than they do because I see them differently. My background is conflict theory, so I see the empirical problems they observe and apply conflict theory to explain why we observe them. What I'm telling you about the funding problem is more or less a first-order derivation from the problems those authors describe. If science is a pyramid scheme where most of the rewards attribute to the few, and the few are influential over what gets funded (and they are), then it follows that they will use that power whenever feasible to discourage competing ideas to protect that stream of rewards.

I assure you that they do. It just doesn't get talked about publicly, because when people try to talk about it they get treated the way you treated me. You dismiss the argument out of hand because there are so many liars in the dataset of non-funded research that you mistakenly infer that everyone is a liar.

The whole system is deeply flawed. Many people inside it will admit this to one another, but rarely to an outsider. The journal review process is never double-blind, because both the person submitting the paper and the reviewers know good and darned well who they're dealing with. I have been on both ends of that one. Who gets tenure where is the result of the interaction of political alliances and the volume of research dollars brought in. These processes all have a substantial amount of logrolling that an external observer can never see. Funding is then determined by the people on committees who do business in secret, and are comprised of people who brought home the most bacon and those expected to do so in the future.

If you want to see an argument for why believing science is pure when making policy, even if you assume all of the above problems away, I'll send you here: https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/why-science-cant-fix-politics/ That link will also tell you that science is inherently politicized, but it does a particularly poor job of explaining why if you ask me.
You talk to me like I've no experience of high grade research and the funding and peer review process.

Mate, you've made an absolute arse of yourself making out the whole system is entirely rotten this last few pages. You made a statement saying the UK would not fund research due to politicisation. You clearly know NADA about UK funding and research.

When directly challenged on this you hid behind a hideous word salad.

So just zip it You tedious twerp.
 
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