Angus 'happily dissatisfied' Kinnear

[davek]

"Exceptional Operators"

 

[Efcjake]

Shocker! A CEO talking up collaboration?!

Of course there's a massive team with input into transfers. The club employ teams of analysts to give briefing on each team as part of match prep, it doesn't mean they're deciding who plays upfront. Moyes is.

I don't pay a lot of attention to what any CEO says - it's too filtered to an agenda, but I do recall him saying how the team put in place was there to support the manager. Coincidentally, I'm sure, that same teams most important figure just happens to be the guy who has supported Moyes at several jobs. Actions>words.

There's always a hierachy, and someone always makes the decision - my view is TFG makes the decision on investment/budget and whether to pay, and Moyes makes the ultimate call on what to act on/who to sign.

If you believe Kinnear, or some other suit is telling Moyes who is going to be in his team - then fair enough. I'd be very surprised.

Isn't every recruitment team set up to support a manager? Nobody has come out and actually confirmed what you believe about Moyes making the ultimate call.

Let's look at what we do know for a fact. Kinnear himself says this new process was all his idea and he pitched it to the Friedkin's in his job interview. So any claims that this removal of a DOF was down to Moyes are immediately shot down by that statement from the horse's mouth itself. You can go to minute 7 of his ToffeeTV interview to hear this straight from him, no more need for speculation.



He's the one who pushed this idea of "Functional experts" and built this new recruitment model. It had nothing to do with Moyes being manager, it was put forward by Kinnear months after Moyes was in the job already. He brought in his mate Nick Hammond because they worked together previously and he's the one who's been responsible for Player Trading and Negotiating. He recommended the new analytics team the Friedkin's bought, he recommended the new head of scouting he brought from Man City. Any bad deals we agreed fall on Nick Hammond as he's the one who was negotiating them, and guess what? Kinnear was the one who hired Nick Hammond too. Moyes isn't to blame for how much was spent on Barry an Dibling, Kinnear and Hammond are.

Players were first identified by the analytics department as candidates, the scouting department reviewed the candidates, and input from Moyes. Kinnear is keen to stress the hours and hours of debate and discussion and that Moyes approved each signing.

If the signings are bad, then it is also a failing from the analytics and scouting departments who put forward all of these players for Moyes to approve or not. Those departments are under the purview of Kinnear and that's why he is getting it in the neck over their role in the failures of our signings,.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

all of these players for Moyes to approve or not.

Yep.

 

[Efcjake]

Yep.

Obviously he's given some level of approval to the lads we brought in, that's massively different than being the head honcho and demanding each of these players himself.

The way people are going on you'd think he went out and did all the analytics and scouting himself and then negotiated the deals.

They gave him a list of players that were willing to sign from us and that's what he had to approve signings from.

If the lists he was given to begin with were of incredibly poor quality, is that Moyes' fault of Kinnear's for setting up the new analytics, scouting, and player trading departments and process?

 

[Efcjake]

Yep.

You conveniently cut off the massive piece of context at the beginning about them being recommended players from staff hand-picked by this CEO.

 

[Efcjake]

You also completely ignored the fact that Kinnear himself takes credit for being the reason we don't have a DOF but go ahead and keep blaming Moyes for everything.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Obviously he's given some level of approval to the lads we brought in, that's massively different than being the head honcho and demanding each of these players himself.

The way people are going on you'd think he went out and did all the analytics and scouting himself and then negotiated the deals.

They gave him a list of players that were willing to sign from us and that's what he had to approve signings from.

If the lists he was given to begin with were of incredibly poor quality, is that Moyes' fault of Kinnear's for setting up the new analytics, scouting, and player trading departments and process?

You're... inventing arguments?

You're just repeating a lot of what I've already said, as though I disagree with it?

Let's recap;

Well, a CEO oversees all areas of the business - but I think it's clear people are continually confusing a CEO with a DOF.

Easy to do, previous Everton CEOs had a Chairman and DOFs doing the updates, which include transfers.

No doubt Kinnear has an involvement in transfers, its a key component of the business of which he is CEO. Wyness, Elstone and Baxendale would have too.

We dont know the extent to which, but my read of it now is the head honcho on recruitment is Moyes. I think that because moved away from a DOF model he didnt like, and in doing so we appointed 4 people 'to support the manager', one of them was Manchester City director of scouting and recruitment James Smith - who is very much a Moyes pick;



I don't think any of us will know for sure, but I think Moyes makes the call and it's on others to work get them over the line. So when he's publicly courting Liam Delap, and it doesn't happen - there's sufficient blame there on others.

I've said a lot of what you're implying I disagree with. I've not for one moment said it's all Moyes, in fact, I've said a fair few times today there's teams that feed in. Others are acting as though it's mainly on Kinnear.

You took contention with 'Head honcho'

There is no head honcho according to Kinnear.

He was very clear to stress that all signings are made by committee with representatives from the scouts, analysts, and Moyes himself.

He was very clear to stress the collaboration he was facilitating.

It looks like it's produced poorly and he's being criticized because Kinnear is the one who decided on this set up, again something he takes credit for a LOT during his ToffeeTV interview in September.

• A head honcho is an informal term for the person in charge, the leader, or the most important figure in a group, organization, or situation

That for me, is Moyes, because, well;

and that Moyes approved each signing.

all of these players for Moyes to approve or not.

 

[Efcjake]

You're... inventing arguments?

You're just repeating a lot of what I've already said, as though I disagree with it?

Let's recap;



I've said a lot of what you're implying I disagree with. I've not for one moment said it's all Moyes, in fact, I've said a fair few times today there's teams that feed in. Others are acting as though it's mainly on Kinnear.

You took contention with 'Head honcho'

• A head honcho is an informal term for the person in charge, the leader, or the most important figure in a group, organization, or situation

That for me, is Moyes, because, well;

I took issue with head honcho because of what you also said here "We dont know the extent to which, but my read of it now is the head honcho on recruitment is Moyes. I think that because moved away from a DOF model he didnt like, and in doing so we appointed 4 people 'to support the manager', one of them was Manchester City director of scouting and recruitment James Smith - who is very much a Moyes pick;"

All of that is utter nonsense. Kinnear in his interview there says this was all KINNEAR'S idea and something he pitched in his interviews with the Friedkin's.

I also took issue because you appear to be saying that Moyes, as the head honcho, bears the ultimate responsibility. I strongly disagree, if the candidates he had to approve from were all identified for him then why is he to blame for only having crap players to pick from out of the recommendations from the teams that KINNEAR set up for him?

Does Kinnear not deserve criticism for establishing this model, hiring the new departments leadership, and hand picking the analytics company we used?

I'd suggest he's had a LOT more influence on the success or failure of our recruitment than David Moyes.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I'd suggest he's had a LOT more influence on the success or failure of our recruitment than David Moyes.

Then we disagree.

I think Moyes is more influential in recruitment than Kinnear. Much more so.

I also disagree with your view that he's given a list of players to choose from and that's it.

A tad dated now but some coverage I always recall when it comes to Moyes/transfers given its insight into Moyes/transfer prep;

Scouting system that reveals David Moyes' mind

In an exclusive extract from his new book Michael Calvin is allowed behind the scenes at Everton to see how the man who is now Manchester United's manager works

www.independent.co.uk

Mainly this bit;

They represent Everton's most valuable intellectual property. Moyes' entire transfer strategy is mapped out on a succession of whiteboards which cover all four walls. This is the visualisation of a principle, the distillation of a philosophy. It underlines the collegiate nature of his approach and the clinical brilliance of his management skills.

Everything is self-contained, yet inter-reliant. Smith has 5,000 reports stored online, on around 1,000 potential targets. They conform to a blueprint, which matches the club's culture, aspirations and financial status. A series of internal scouting conferences analyse trends and standardise reporting mechanisms.

Each scout must assess every player under the age of 24 at his match, and grade them on specific aspects of performance. Moyes has produced what he calls "an MOT Test", where players are judged against a checklist of up to 12 criteria for each position.

The optimal aim is to have up to 50 reports on a primary transfer target, written by between 10 and 12 scouts. The manager's commitment inspires loyalty and, it must be said, a little awe. Steve Brown, who took Smith's role as principal performance analyst, hails Moyes' "brilliance" in devising specific tactical strategies. The same qualities which make him a leading coach – according to Brown, "he's so detailed, thorough and methodical in his work" – make him a good judge of a player. The complementary disciplines coalesce in the preparation of a two-tiered game plan, which draws on detail contained in Everton's opposition scouting reports.

Steve Round, Moyes' assistant, has an integral role in its compilation with the manager. The main strategy, which takes several hours to create, is distilled into a shorter, more accessible version for the players, featuring team shape, set-piece analysis and opposition goals. Round enters the transfer process after first-team coach Jimmy Lumsden has followed up leads sourced by the scouts, and sanctioned by chief scout Robbie Cooke. Again, the principle of collective responsibility applies.

Smith admitted: "When I started at the club, I didn't know much about it all, so I've learned from the manager, from Steve and the other staff. In the first job, I was doing all the pre- and post-match video work, so I spent a lot of time listening and showing them stuff, talking about stuff. Doing all the team meetings, travelling abroad, was a massive chance to learn from David.

"So I've got an idea of players from him. I kind of know what he's looking for, what he's thinking. I'm thinking out loud now, but my role is knitting it together, being a kind of a link between the manager and the scouts.

"Everything is fed back into the recruitment room. Anyone can just pop his head in at any time. It enables the manager to keep absolutely on top of what's going on. That's a lot of what I think David Moyes' success is probably about: keeping on top of everything and checking, making sure you're on it and it's not just drifting."

The secret room is unprepossessing, long and thin. It has the feel of a teacher's study at a busy comprehensive. It is a mine of information, a tantalising glimpse of what might be, expressed in marker pens of different hues.

The whiteboards on the walls have a logical sequence. To understand where Everton are in the recruitment process, they must be read from left to right. The first board features the most promising new foreign players, highlighted by the system. They are the pick of the 1,000 or so players under review, and are deemed realistic recruits. Annotated beneath individual positions, they span Europe and South America. Trends are highlighted: right-backs, for instance, are in extremely short supply.

The next whiteboard contains live targets, who are monitored constantly. Their ages are written in red, on a yellow square. Those names in blue are potential free transfers, coming to the end of their contracts. Those in green are potential loanees. Those in red carry a price. There is an additional section, in the bottom left-hand corner, featuring three goalkeepers, who are seen as emergency loanees if required.

Some managers preach loyalty; Moyes practises it. The next whiteboard is a statement of faith in those closest to him. It features favoured Premier League players, personal choices who are not on any other list. They must be 26 or under, playing for a club outside the top six, and be regarded as realistic potential recruits.

They have been voted for by Moyes, and his senior staff. Four players, out of the 20 or so featured, are unanimous selections. That gives everyone food for thought. Time moves with terrifying speed in football: the next wall condenses the next three seasons into the five seconds or so it takes to scan a succession of teams, in Everton's favoured formation.

This is why the secret room is off limits to players. It is, in essence, a Moyes mind map. The whiteboard contains a list of all first-team squad players, with their ages, contract details and appearance records.

It starts with Moyes' idea of his best current starting 11, and what it will be, up until 2014. This offers an insight into which regulars he suspects will fade away, and who he hopes will emerge from the supporting cast. It is an imprecise science because of the unpredictability of fate but the gaps, when they appear, are ominous. This is a visual tool for the black art of management, moving a player on when his use has been exhausted but his resale potential is still significant.

Moyes does not share the elitist view that the quality of players from the Football League has declined so markedly that it is negligible. His personality was shaped in the lower leagues and he retains faith in their ability to nurture raw talent. The next whiteboard is smaller, and contains no player over the age of 23. The most promising Championship, League One and Two players are highlighted in blue, red and green respectively.

The last major whiteboard, the transfer window list, is in many ways the most important. This contains the names of players Everton are actively seeking to sign. This is the scruffiest section, because so many names have been scrubbed off, or re-entered, during the courtship rituals involving players, clubs, agents and assorted hangers-on. The human element will always be paramount. Peer recognition is pivotal. Moyes' brains trust uses individual contacts, including players, coaches and managers. Agents are regarded as most useful in South America where the web of third-party ownership can ensnare the unwise or the unwary.

... and

Like his mentor Sir Alex Ferguson, he wields power decisively, but sensitively. He is comfortable with ultimate responsibility – indeed he demands it – but the democratic nature of Everton's recruitment policy informs us of the man, and the club he has created.

... more recently;

David Moyes On Everton Transfer Plans

Everton manager David Moyes spoke to Sky Sports News reporter Juliette Ferrington ahead of Everton vs Tottenham Hotspur about the club’s ongoing transfer window activity. Balancing Act in the Transfer Market “We’re in the transfer window, so we’re trying to quickly identify things that can be...

www.grandoldteam.com

Reflecting on his managerial philosophy, Moyes emphasised the importance of making thoughtful decisions in the transfer market. “It’s got to be right. It’s got to be right for Everton, and that’s why I’ve always probably taken my time, maybe a little bit longer, to try and hope that I get it right more often. It’s my way of going about it.”

This careful approach may appear at odds with modern football’s fast-paced nature, but Moyes believes it’s a cornerstone of long-term success. “We’re in a world now where things move much faster, but I always try to get as much right as I could. I think managers live and die by their recruitment. You have to get your recruitment right.”

 

[PeregrineT]

Shocker! A CEO talking up collaboration?!

Of course there's a massive team with input into transfers. The club employ teams of analysts to give briefing on each team as part of match prep, it doesn't mean they're deciding who plays upfront. Moyes does.

I don't pay a lot of attention to what any CEO says - it's too filtered to an agenda, but I do recall him saying how the team put in place was there to support the manager. Coincidentally, I'm sure, that same teams most important figure just happens to be the guy who has supported Moyes at several jobs. Actions>words.

Someone always makes the decision - my view is TFG makes the decision on investment/budget and whether to pay, and Moyes makes the ultimate call on what to act on/who to sign.

If you believe Kinnear, or some other suit is telling Moyes who is going to be in his team - then fair enough. I'd be very surprised.

Indeed, people can talk a good game about things being by committee, but who the actual decision maker is, is easy to figure out.

Just ask "When there is a tie in the committee, who makes the deciding vote?". That's your decision maker. Letting other people have input is good.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Indeed, people can talk a good game about things being by committee, but who the actual decision maker is, is easy to figure out.

Just ask "When there is a tie in the committee, who makes the deciding vote?". That's your decision maker. Letting other people have input is good.

Indeed. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we're currently trying to sign a player that David Moyes tried to sign a few times at West Ham. Or maybe he was on the list that I'm told was dictated to him by Kinnear

 

[Efcjake]

Then we disagree.

I think Moyes is more influential in recruitment than Kinnear. Much more so.

I also disagree with your view that he's given a list of players to choose from and that's it.

A tad dated now but some coverage I always recall when it comes to Moyes/transfers given its insight into Moyes/transfer prep;

Scouting system that reveals David Moyes' mind

In an exclusive extract from his new book Michael Calvin is allowed behind the scenes at Everton to see how the man who is now Manchester United's manager works

www.independent.co.uk

Mainly this bit;



... and



... more recently;

David Moyes On Everton Transfer Plans

Everton manager David Moyes spoke to Sky Sports News reporter Juliette Ferrington ahead of Everton vs Tottenham Hotspur about the club’s ongoing transfer window activity. Balancing Act in the Transfer Market “We’re in the transfer window, so we’re trying to quickly identify things that can be...

www.grandoldteam.com

Why are you pulling up an article from 2013? That's completely irrelevant and over a decade out of date. It has no bearing on how Everton works today in 2025. I'm not even going to bother reading it as it might as well be from 1913.

Why is that more relevant than an interview from the CEO telling us directly the process he has set up in September 2025?

 

[Efcjake]

Indeed. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we're currently trying to sign a player that David Moyes tried to sign a few times at West Ham. Or maybe he was on the list that I'm told was dictated to him by Kinnear

Considering that this fellas direct comparable players are our other two strikers.... I'd suggest it's not a massive jump.

 

[Lanolin]

Isn't every recruitment team set up to support a manager? Nobody has come out and actually confirmed what you believe about Moyes making the ultimate call.

Let's look at what we do know for a fact. Kinnear himself says this new process was all his idea and he pitched it to the Friedkin's in his job interview. So any claims that this removal of a DOF was down to Moyes are immediately shot down by that statement from the horse's mouth itself. You can go to minute 7 of his ToffeeTV interview to hear this straight from him, no more need for speculation.



He's the one who pushed this idea of "Functional experts" and built this new recruitment model. It had nothing to do with Moyes being manager, it was put forward by Kinnear months after Moyes was in the job already. He brought in his mate Nick Hammond because they worked together previously and he's the one who's been responsible for Player Trading and Negotiating. He recommended the new analytics team the Friedkin's bought, he recommended the new head of scouting he brought from Man City. Any bad deals we agreed fall on Nick Hammond as he's the one who was negotiating them, and guess what? Kinnear was the one who hired Nick Hammond too. Moyes isn't to blame for how much was spent on Barry an Dibling, Kinnear and Hammond are.

Players were first identified by the analytics department as candidates, the scouting department reviewed the candidates, and input from Moyes. Kinnear is keen to stress the hours and hours of debate and discussion and that Moyes approved each signing.

If the signings are bad, then it is also a failing from the analytics and scouting departments who put forward all of these players for Moyes to approve or not. Those departments are under the purview of Kinnear and that's why he is getting it in the neck over their role in the failures of our signings,.

I have no skin in the game but that seems a little bit naive. Without wanting to sound like Mandy Rice-Davies, he would say that wouldn't he? He's the CEO, hes not going to give an interview where he says yeah i'm just an admin head really, the Friedkins set the strategy and Moyes does the football stuff, I just sort of do whatever i'm told like a dogsbody. It's standard corporate speak for someone in his position. That obviously doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true, just that it's a bit naive to think it must be true because he said so.

 

[Efcjake]

I have no skin in the game but that seems a little bit naive. Without wanting to sound like Mandy Rice-Davies, he would say that wouldn't he? He's the CEO, hes not going to give an interview where he says yeah i'm just an admin head really, the Friedkins set the strategy and Moyes does the football stuff, I just sort of do whatever i'm told like a dogsbody. It's standard corporate speak for someone in his position. That obviously doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true, just that it's a bit naive to think it must be true because he said so.

The fact is he takes full credit for being the reason we have no DOF right in this interview and claims it was his big sales pitch to get the job.

So people moaning about the recruitment being impacted by no DoF need to direct their blame to the fella taking credit for it rather than deciding they want to blame Moyes for that as well.