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Warren like most of the Democrat runners and politicians in general are a fraud.

Bernie
If Sanders gets elected president I expect four years of Republican obstructionism which, if they retain control of the Senate and/or regain control of the House, would prevent him from making much headway on his goals beyond what could be achieved by executive order.

If one of the other Dems gets elected president instead, I expect the same.

Hooray.
Sounds like the last four years.

I think the Dems will be in trouble come election time whoever they have going up against Trump. It looks like a party divided and everyone is in it for their own self interest.
 
This is a rare look at the state v. national picture from the same pollster with the same methods. The contrast is stark. The last Quinnipiac national numbers were...
Bloomberg+9
Biden+7
Sanders+8
Warren+4
Buttigieg+4
Klobuchar+6

Those are potentially losing numbers for Warren and Buttegieg, and I'm talking Republican Electoral College advantage rather than mere margin for error (or Russian interference).

Surprised Sanders polls that well. Weird world we live in where the two guys most likely to win the election (Trump and Sanders) look to be the two most likely to die in office. Neither looks healthy.
 
We are 258 days out from the general, less given early voting.

Not trying to be snarky but at what point do you think they matter? Only after the primary has finished?

Sorry, forgot to reply to this.

I'm not sure how much they ever really matter
03ctZgi.png


And, while one might argue that she won three million more votes, it was also an irrational certainty in polling data which prompted the Clinton (and now Warren) team of geniuses to ignore their people on the ground in Michigan and Wisconsin and unsuccessfully reach for Iowa (whose local staff had long since reported was a lost cause).

Polls in isolation are nearly useless in a system as convoluted as America's. They have some value in tracking momentum, but they do not generally measure turnout rates - which these days is arguably the most important factor - and they also tend to under-represent younger voters and non-habitual voters.

When somebody quotes polls without considering their context, it is a sure sign that they do not understand politics (not referring to you, I hasten to add!) So, for example, the polls that showed Biden ahead in Iowa all year were nearly worthless because virtually no voters were actually paying attention yet. When they started to tune in, about a month before the caucus, we saw a sudden surge for Sanders, which is also what happened in 2016. The polls mostly caught that, which is where their true value lies. But to regard polls from, say, July 2019 which showed Biden in the lead as 'data' or 'evidence' of anything was always silly. Basic observation and inductive reasoning made it painfully clear that he is a blubbering, incoherent mess who will severely depress turnout. It is telling, if not surprising, to see posters even now, after Iowa and NH, citing head-to-head polls as 'proof' that Biden still has the best chance of beating Trump.

Looking at swing state polls is a more logical assumption, but they tend to be based on thinner and lower-quality data, and tell us nothing at this stage. It is far, far, too early - we haven't had any head-to-dead debates yet, there are still nine months of messaging and events to go, and nobody except the weirdos who frequent forums like this is really paying attention yet. Polls serve mostly to confirm what has already happened; using them as a predictive tool without very careful consideration of a range of non-quantifiable factors is not generally wise - as Joe Biden helpfully shows us.

I've posted this before, and can't recommend it highly enough:

Also, on the question of polling and electibility, I found this interview quite interesting too, if you have 20 minutes to spare. Makes it pretty clear, reading between the lines, that the Democrats intend to bomb the village in order to save it.

The people who spent February 2019 parroting the cable news talking point that 'Bernie should drop out because all the candidates share his views and he can't win' would do well to heed their own advice now, if they actually want to defeat Trump.

But it's pretty clear that the catastrophic farce of a contested convention is now the DNC's main objective, and that the chasing pack is competing not to win, but for the right to serve as anointed viceroy, on pain of permanently shattering 'party unity' if not breaking up the Democratic Party altogether, and quite possibly handing Trump the victory then and there.

It's a shame that Warren supporters aren't so cultist, or they'd have long since accepted reality and demanded she call off her kamikaze mission, and do the responsible thing by dropping out and backing the only viable progressive candidate. But instead, the toxic masculinity of her army of rabid online bros is only intensifying, as shown when one of her most vocal supporters broke ranks ; )
 
Warren like most of the Democrat runners and politicians in general are a fraud.

Bernie

Sounds like the last four years.

I think the Dems will be in trouble come election time whoever they have going up against Trump. It looks like a party divided and everyone is in it for their own self interest.



Would you say the Democrats are handing Trump the next election mate??
 
Would you say the Democrats are handing Trump the next election mate??

I think the danger for the democrats is the election four years further down the track.

The old guard won't be around then and the newbies (the squad) in my opinion will fade away. Same goes for the GOP, however I do like what I've heard from Crenshaw. He presents as reasonable, balanced, intellectual and not unhinged.

I think Trump will win, largely due to the the economy amongst other matters. Understandably the national debt is high, but it's something I believe is manageable.
 
I think the danger for the democrats is the election four years further down the track.

The old guard won't be around then and the newbies (the squad) in my opinion will fade away. Same goes for the GOP, however I do like what I've heard from Crenshaw. He presents as reasonable, balanced, intellectual and not unhinged.

I think Trump will win, largely due to the the economy amongst other matters. Understandably the national debt is high, but it's something I believe is manageable.
It's something that no one cares about. I'm not saying that's right.

As for the GOP, they are off the deep end into Trumpland. I'm guessing if Trump loses in 2020, the 2024 candidate will be Sean Hannity or something
\
 
If Trump loses in 2020, the GOP's 2024 candidate will be Trump. Same as if Trump wins in 2020.
I have some legitimate concerns that he will willingly relinquish his power in 2024 if he’s re-elected this fall. As to whether or not enough of the people here are so far off the deep end as to tolerate that, I don’t know.

Obviously it’s not an apples to apples comparison, but there are some disturbing parallels between some of the things going on in the US right now and Germany in the late 20’s/early 30’s. They didn’t arrive at an authoritarian state that was exterminating entire ethnic groups overnight. They arrived there because the Nazis methodically kept overstepping their bounds and the country never collectively drew a line in the sand and said enough is enough. The fact that there wasn’t massive public outcry over our country’s president openly claiming that he is the nation’s chief law enforcement officer while pardoning his criminal friends this week is EXTREMELY worrying to me.
 
I have some legitimate concerns that he will willingly relinquish his power in 2024 if he’s re-elected this fall. As to whether or not enough of the people here are so far off the deep end as to tolerate that, I don’t know.

Obviously it’s not an apples to apples comparison, but there are some disturbing parallels between some of the things going on in the US right now and Germany in the late 20’s/early 30’s. They didn’t arrive at an authoritarian state that was exterminating entire ethnic groups overnight. They arrived there because the Nazis methodically kept overstepping their bounds and the country never collectively drew a line in the sand and said enough is enough. The fact that there wasn’t massive public outcry over our country’s president openly claiming that he is the nation’s chief law enforcement officer while pardoning his criminal friends this week is EXTREMELY worrying to me.
I go back on forth on whether Trump would really cross that Rubicon, but the fact that people are even entertaining the thought of that being something that might possibly happen is staggering. We're 10,000 miles from 2016 in terms of what's conceivable in presidential politics.
 
I go back on forth on whether Trump would really cross that Rubicon, but the fact that people are even entertaining the thought of that being something that might possibly happen is staggering. We're 10,000 miles from 2016 in terms of what's conceivable in presidential politics.
whether he crosses it or not, he's laid down a road map and shown it can be done. He's shown that there's an audience who's perceived disenfranchisement can be easily manipulated. The damage has been done, it's down to limitation now.

Christ, that's a grim post... Sorry!
Roll on the arsenal game!
 
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Sorry, forgot to reply to this.

I'm not sure how much they ever really matter
03ctZgi.png


And, while one might argue that she won three million more votes, it was also an irrational certainty in polling data which prompted the Clinton (and now Warren) team of geniuses to ignore their people on the ground in Michigan and Wisconsin and unsuccessfully reach for Iowa (whose local staff had long since reported was a lost cause).

Polls in isolation are nearly useless in a system as convoluted as America's. They have some value in tracking momentum, but they do not generally measure turnout rates - which these days is arguably the most important factor - and they also tend to under-represent younger voters and non-habitual voters.

When somebody quotes polls without considering their context, it is a sure sign that they do not understand politics (not referring to you, I hasten to add!) So, for example, the polls that showed Biden ahead in Iowa all year were nearly worthless because virtually no voters were actually paying attention yet. When they started to tune in, about a month before the caucus, we saw a sudden surge for Sanders, which is also what happened in 2016. The polls mostly caught that, which is where their true value lies. But to regard polls from, say, July 2019 which showed Biden in the lead as 'data' or 'evidence' of anything was always silly. Basic observation and inductive reasoning made it painfully clear that he is a blubbering, incoherent mess who will severely depress turnout. It is telling, if not surprising, to see posters even now, after Iowa and NH, citing head-to-head polls as 'proof' that Biden still has the best chance of beating Trump.

Looking at swing state polls is a more logical assumption, but they tend to be based on thinner and lower-quality data, and tell us nothing at this stage. It is far, far, too early - we haven't had any head-to-dead debates yet, there are still nine months of messaging and events to go, and nobody except the weirdos who frequent forums like this is really paying attention yet. Polls serve mostly to confirm what has already happened; using them as a predictive tool without very careful consideration of a range of non-quantifiable factors is not generally wise - as Joe Biden helpfully shows us.

I've posted this before, and can't recommend it highly enough:

Also, on the question of polling and electibility, I found this interview quite interesting too, if you have 20 minutes to spare. Makes it pretty clear, reading between the lines, that the Democrats intend to bomb the village in order to save it.

The people who spent February 2019 parroting the cable news talking point that 'Bernie should drop out because all the candidates share his views and he can't win' would do well to heed their own advice now, if they actually want to defeat Trump.

But it's pretty clear that the catastrophic farce of a contested convention is now the DNC's main objective, and that the chasing pack is competing not to win, but for the right to serve as anointed viceroy, on pain of permanently shattering 'party unity' if not breaking up the Democratic Party altogether, and quite possibly handing Trump the victory then and there.

It's a shame that Warren supporters aren't so cultist, or they'd have long since accepted reality and demanded she call off her kamikaze mission, and do the responsible thing by dropping out and backing the only viable progressive candidate. But instead, the toxic masculinity of her army of rabid online bros is only intensifying, as shown when one of her most vocal supporters broke ranks ; )
Thanks for the detailed reply.

One area I think we disagree is that I find polls (despite their weaknesses and built in margin of errors) are an interesting counter check on my “gut feel” and a way of looking outside my bubble. For instance I agree with your comment “Basic observation and inductive reasoning made it painfully clear that he (Biden) is a blubbering, incoherent mess who will severely depress turnout” and have stated in the thread several times that if Biden was the candidate I was concerned about how he would motivate voters. However his resilience in the polls even now, despite some obvious stumbles, is intriguing. Whilst I’d agree last year was too early, I don’t now think they can be dismissed as easily as “people aren’t paying attention” as we are less than two weeks out from Super Tuesday, the leading candidates have high name recognition and we are in a highly polarized environment. “Who can beat Trump“, is a a clear priority for a lot of voters and at the very least the head to head polls are probably influencing the primary.

I’ll check out the New Yorker article and interview this evening but I’m going to decline to bite on the obvious “Warren cultists” bait ;)
 
I’m going to decline to bite on the obvious “Warren cultists” bait ;)

Some of her supporters undoubtedly are cultists, but no more than with any other candidate. An admittedly indulgent example on my part of how easy it is to spin a narrative, if that's what you set out to do ; ) It's a shame so many of our friends here aren't as discerning as you in the information they consume.

I do think though that if their positions were reversed, the Warren supporters (and probably Warren herself) would be demanding Sanders withdraw and back her - and they'd probably be right. She was on the verge of having to drop out anyways due to financial pressure (and the departure of several staffers doesn't help, albeit due to the racism of her campaign rather than its lack of funds). But her strong debate performance has bought her a bit more time, and a decent showing in Nevada will help too.

I do hope though that she'll do the responsible thing when the time comes. It would be beyond cynical of her to aim solely to be imposed from above at a brokered convention, and in those circumstances, she'd be even more certainly routed by Trump in the general. But given her track record, I'm not optimistic.
 
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