Current Affairs Ukraine

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The Chechen conflict, over a region which meant far less to the average Russian than Ukraine, dragged on for years, with the most savage fighting since WW2.

The tolerance threshold at home for a long drawn out conflict may be higher than we think.
I don't think you can compare the two. One war was against Muslims and this war is against fellow orthodox Christian slavs, most of which speak the same language and look the same.

Ukraine is the largest country in Europe with one of the biggest populations. You have large numbers of both Russians and Ukrainians who cross borders regularly. The cities of Odessa and Kiev are visited by Russians. This brings it home to people. Grozny is far from a tourist destination and the population and area of Chechnya is tiny in comparison.
 
The Chechen conflict, over a region which meant far less to the average Russian than Ukraine, dragged on for years, with the most savage fighting since WW2.

The tolerance threshold at home for a long drawn out conflict may be higher than we think.
Kev I know you have taken a good stand on all this, but this isn't anywhere near the Chechen conflict. This one really matters to the West whether they put boots on the ground or not. Young Russians believe me will flee from Russia in droves and the whole economy will implode sooner than many will think. Think Iran on a larger scale. Most of Putin's yes men are fleeing to pastures green with the glory days of spreading their wealth around the World either frozen or else they can't play anymore due to other Western sanctions. This I believe will outlive Putin going forward.
 
I'm in solidarity with people who are anti emperialist and war and influence on both sides.

Whatever people think surely everyone can see sky, cnn, BBC, rte etc are propaganda like RT.

Can some impartial kind soul do a poll please?

There's a world of difference between RT and the likes of the BBC, sky, CNN and the like.

Genuinely worlds apart.
 
I realise Nato is reluctant to intervene, but the situation is so out of hand now with this senseless destruction and death, part of me says F it, let’s bomb that convoy to pieces and see what Putin makes of that. How would he respond I wonder?
I get it, when the anger takes over you think why the hell not.

But then you realise there's very good reasons why.
 
Good piece in the Telegraph by Major General Jonathan Shaw. (Ex director of U.K. special forces and now heads up the Cyber security branch of the army).

It’s behind a paywall do I’ve copied and pasted below:

The Kremlin won't admit that it has already lost
Jonathan Shaw (Telegraph 2 Mar 22)




I suspect that Vladimir Putin is not the only one surprised by the slow speed of the Russian army’s invasion of Ukraine. Yet fighting power is more than sheer mass; it includes the way you fight and with what spirit. And on those metrics, Putin seems to have miscalculated.

Massing nearly 200,000 troops on the borders of your intended target is certainly an impressive show of force. The intent, one can assume, was to intimidate the Ukrainian government into acquiescing to his demands.In that Putin failed. But he was successful in flushing out the West’s likely reaction: the US said they would not put boots on the ground to defend Ukraine; Germany, among others, seemed weak in its commitment to sanctions that had proved so ineffective in 2014 after the Crimea invasion; US and UK bellicosity seemed in the minority.

Thus emboldened, Putin ordered his invasion by around a third of his force. But the attack was higher on symbolism and frighteners than the overwhelming firepower that normal Russian doctrine would demand.
He did not believe the Ukrainians were up for the fight, he thought he would have a quick win, and he knew that the fewer casualties and the less destruction he caused, the more acquiescent the resulting puppet state of Ukraine would be.

Putin’s hopes have been dashed. Napoleon is said to have judged that “the moral is to the physical as three is to one”. The Ukrainians are fighting for their homeland, fired by memories of the four million Ukrainians killed by Stalin’s Great Famine of the 1930s. The Russian soldiers, many from the far east of Russia, have little idea where they are, and are shocked to find themselves not greeted as liberators but told by grannies to “f--- off”.

Morale is low and they must be realising they have been sold a lie. And Putin’s aggression has achieved the seemingly impossible and turned the EU into a military power.

Conceptually, the Ukrainians know Russian tactics and equipment well; they have hit the Russian logistics chain – which, in a country the size of Ukraine, was always going to be a big challenge. The Ukrainians’ fierce resistance has meant that the Russians’ relatively light-touch approach hasn’t worked, which exposes another built-in weakness of the Russian army.Every army works according to its own national culture; they operate on a spectrum between top-down authoritarianism and the freedom of low-level initiative.

The Russian army remains rooted in the authoritarian end of the spectrum. It is a mass army that relies on (artillery and air) firepower to crush the enemy and then mass troop formations to overwhelm them, regardless of casualties. The relatively soft approach was playing to its weakness. Meeting opposition has asked it to change tactical plans on the hoof.

There is no doubt that the Russian army has the firepower and mass to prevail. It is now bringing up the artillery to engage urban areas with blanket attacks and the prospects are grim.

Quite how imprecise the attacks will be is shown by the use of BM-21 rocket launchers; these were designed in the 1960s and they fire rockets called Grad (or “hail” in Russian). It seems inconceivable that Putin should order the same tactics for Ukraine as he used on Grozny in Chechnya and Aleppo in Syria. But my fear is that, given that defeat is a psychological impossibility for him, his only card is to escalate.

The irony is that, even if he wins the war, he will lose the peace – for there will be no peace to keep. During his time as commander of US forces in Iraq, General Petraeus used to say: “Every army of liberation has a half-life; after which it becomes an army of occupation.”The Russian army is already en route to being an army of occupation. What this will do to the morale of Russian troops will be key.

But the doctrinal writing is on the wall. The figures are speculative but it is often quoted that the ratio of troops to civilians in a counter-insurgency control operation needs to be 20 troops per 1,000. Ukraine has a population of 44 million (quite apart from being huge); Russia will need 880,000 troops to match this ratio – about five times more than it has currently deployed.

A similar disparity between demand and supply of troops existed for us in Basra when we had under 5,000 fighting troops to control a city of two million.
All we could achieve was local dominance for a limited time. We never controlled Basra, and it is hard to see how Putin will control an occupied Ukraine. The nightmare for him would be for him to end up repeating the disaster of Afghanistan.

As Carl von Clausewitz observed: “If there must be war, victory lies not in defeating an army but in securing the willing submission of a populace. Stability, not a passing triumph of arms, is the test.” Putin has misjudged the resistance of both the Ukrainians and world opinion.

He has misjudged the capability of the military tool he has employed to secure his political goal. Indeed, it is likely that it is the very brutal success of his military that will ensure he fails to achieve his political objective of a stable and pliant Ukraine.
 
I'm in solidarity with people who are anti emperialist and war and influence on both sides.

Whatever people think surely everyone can see sky, cnn, BBC, rte etc are propaganda like RT.

Can some impartial kind soul do a poll please?
Propaganda is a part of war from all sides. It is right to question it.
Surely when picking a side:
1. Are sensible nations such as scandanvians siding with Russia? No?
2. Who is siding with Russia? Belarus?
3. Have Ukrainians prepared nuclear weapons and provided a vieled
Threat to use them against the west? No?
It seems picking the right the side is easy here.
 
I bet you find you 'agree' with them more.

Happy coincidence.

I bet you find I don't, although the BBC are doing some very good work in reporting what is going on. You're not as enlightened as you think you are, I 'am fully aware of the issues with the media in this country

Any chance you or kev could actually disclose where you're both getting your info from or will you keep avoiding that question? You know, if you're continually calling out then at least put down your sources of information.
 
I get it, when the anger takes over you think why the hell not.

But then you realise there's very good reasons why.
Well said.

It seems just waiting many items will resolve. The Russian war machine already mechanically troubling will not get a overhaul. They may win the war in the short run but keeping their gains will be catastrophic to both their economy and the absolute isolation from the World.
 
I have to say if this was some wannabe instagrammer young wan from London etc she would be getting belters. Your fleeing a war zone, some people helped some didn't what do you expect.
I'll be honest the attempt by some (a minority) of the BLM and American cultural wars to hijack this tragedy is just irritating. These people complaining are just selfish narcissists expecting preferential treatment.
Sorry for the rant but I'd just watched interviews with some other young black men who had no complaints, other than the cold, in walking to the border and stating that if they hadn't families etc to return to they would be helping in Ukraine.
I just find the my first attitude of that video Vs they're attitude so aggravating.
No can't have this, the issue has nothing to do with BLM cultural wars. Been widely reported by various sources from within Nigeria India and China about their people's experiences etc. Those young black men you mention making their way on foot, could easily be counted, they probably just did not want any attention while getting out, would imagine their trust in white folk would be a little low.
 
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