Current Affairs Ukraine

Status
Not open for further replies.
So you think there's no other way to avoid direct confrontation with Russia other than spending? That's a genuine question btw, not a loaded sarcastic one. I'm just a layperson in matters like this, with nothing other than a basic knowledge of current geopolitics. I just don't like the rhetoric. It concerns me, I have kids.

We’ve been in a confrontation with Russia for years, just not a kinetic one that’s going on in Eastern Europe.

The British Military has been on the end of cuts galore over the last 14 years thanks to the Tory party & procurement is taking far too long and is far too expensive.

Spending needs to go up to 2.5%-3%, better equipment, bigger military, change of doctrine due to Ukraine, better procurement & better industry. A stronger, modernised military that has good industry behind it stops a direct confrontation.
 
You do know there is a war In the middle of Europe, part funded by NATO countries don’t you? This isn’t news, he’s stating facts.

Of course I do Bry. I just don't personally believe there's a cat in hells chance that this is still going on in 4/5 years unless there's an escalation. I don't believe Ukraine can hold out that long. I believe their only hopes are a peace deal or the Russian people turning on Putin.

I'd love nothing more than Ukraine to kick their arse. I just can't see it happening.
 
Is the move away from largely russian owned fossil energy supply akin to nothing like kow towing to stalinist requirement?

Hopefully the tankers russia eventually uses to ship their god given product to the brics nations get torpedoed every time. A lasting peace requires a lasting boot on the neck.
 
This is just getting silly now. So we need to be on a war footing or we're gonna be in big, big trouble in 4 or 5 years he says...

Why? Are we gonna be officially at war with Russia by then? Best just make sure we're well stocked up on weapons then eh? What other course of action is there?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for countries being able to defend themselves, but the fact of the matter is, Ukraine can't win this unless the Russian people turn on Putin.

Truth be told I'm sick of NATO now. Sick of us supposedly having to line the pockets of arms manufacturers to defend ourselves. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if we got rid of all of our nukes. In fact I'd welcome it. I genuinely believe we don't need them. I'd much rather they spent the money on fortifying the country against invasion than nukes. Russia are struggling (but very slowly getting there) to overwhelm their next door neighbour, what chance would they have of trying to conquer our island(s) if we put a lot more spending in to actually protecting against that?

Some might say that we can't retaliate if they decide to nuke us. So what? It will be no consolation to me once I've been vaporised that we've fired some back at them.

There's no other way to take what NATO have said there than we're headed for war. Any chance we could try and stop it then?
We, the west, face a situation of both Russia and China (and their axis) pursuing a vision of global governance where autocratic models, rather than democratic principles, dominate. Russia is trying to reshape Europe’s security architecture and diminish the influence of NATO, while China is seeking a greater role in global institutions and challenging the U.S.-led global order through a mix of economic and military means. It's no secret, they talk openly about this and have been active to this end for years - predating the invasion of Ukraine. It would be foolish to ignore the threats these foes are posing and NATO is key to protecting our western democracies.
 
We, the west, face a situation of both Russia and China (and their axis) pursuing a vision of global governance where autocratic models, rather than democratic principles, dominate. Russia is trying to reshape Europe’s security architecture and diminish the influence of NATO, while China is seeking a greater role in global institutions and challenging the U.S.-led global order through a mix of economic and military means. It's no secret, they talk openly about this and have been active to this end for years - predating the invasion of Ukraine. It would be foolish to ignore the threats these foes are posing and NATO is key to protecting our western democracies.

Is there a chance it makes no difference though? Will some of these countries care if they send millions of their own to their deaths in taking on NATO? We already have the nuclear deterrent, so if that's not gonna stop them, I'm assuming their MO would be to put boots on the ground and try and fight a conventional war?

As an island nation would we better served just ensuring that anybody who tries to put boots on the ground here get's their arse well and truly handed to them? Could we do that better without giving money in to NATO?

It just sickens me all this, and I'm not here to say you or anybody else are wrong, as I'm far from an expert.
 
This is just getting silly now. So we need to be on a war footing or we're gonna be in big, big trouble in 4 or 5 years he says...

Why? Are we gonna be officially at war with Russia by then? Best just make sure we're well stocked up on weapons then eh? What other course of action is there?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for countries being able to defend themselves, but the fact of the matter is, Ukraine can't win this unless the Russian people turn on Putin.

Truth be told I'm sick of NATO now. Sick of us supposedly having to line the pockets of arms manufacturers to defend ourselves. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if we got rid of all of our nukes. In fact I'd welcome it. I genuinely believe we don't need them. I'd much rather they spent the money on fortifying the country against invasion than nukes. Russia are struggling (but very slowly getting there) to overwhelm their next door neighbour, what chance would they have of trying to conquer our island(s) if we put a lot more spending in to actually protecting against that?

Some might say that we can't retaliate if they decide to nuke us. So what? It will be no consolation to me once I've been vaporised that we've fired some back at them.

There's no other way to take what NATO have said there than we're headed for war. Any chance we could try and stop it then?
Ukraine didn’t have nukes and look what happened to them.

Ukraine wasn’t part of NATO and look what happened to them.

Do you honestly think that Russia would’ve invaded Ukraine if they had nukes or they’d been part of a wider European defence alliance?

Fact is we have to maintain our nuclear capability and we have to remain part of NATO to face down naked Russian aggression and imperialistic land-grabbing.
 
Ukraine didn’t have nukes and look what happened to them.

Ukraine wasn’t part of NATO and look what happened to them.

Do you honestly think that Russia would’ve invaded Ukraine if they had nukes or they’d been part of a wider European defence alliance?

Fact is we have to maintain our nuclear capability and we have to remain part of NATO to face down naked Russian aggression and imperialistic land-grabbing.

Absolutely frightening some people just don't get this.
 
Absolutely frightening some people just don't get this.
I think someone is taking the pish.

this is what appeasement looks like.

chamn-mun01s.jpg


Thankfully it dogged him to his last breath.
 
Ukraine didn’t have nukes and look what happened to them.

Ukraine wasn’t part of NATO and look what happened to them.

Do you honestly think that Russia would’ve invaded Ukraine if they had nukes or they’d been part of a wider European defence alliance?

Fact is we have to maintain our nuclear capability and we have to remain part of NATO to face down naked Russian aggression and imperialistic land-grabbing.

Okay then, as I've said previously, I'm not here to tell people they're wrong, I don't have the expertise for that.

Where do you see this situation heading and what will the landscape look like in 4/5 years?

Do I think Russia would have invaded Ukraine if they had nukes? No idea tbh, It's probably unlikely. We have them though, and judging by NATO boys comments they're not enough of a deterrent anyway as we need to spend a lot more apparently.

Do I think they'd have invaded Ukraine if they were part of an alliance? again I don't know, but to say no would be assuming Putin would give a crap about sending millions to their death.

As it stands I don't think NATO is doing much to face down this aggression. Now I'm not saying they're sitting on their hands, but it seems to me that all they're actually doing is slowing the Russian advance. Meanwhile the Russian advance continues, albeit at a pedestrian pace. People using terms like appeasement is a bit daft tbh. We're desperate to avoid direct confrontation with Russia, no amount of money thrown at Ukraine can disguise that fact.

As I said previously, I personally don't believe there's a chance this is still going on in 4/5 years unless there's an escalation. The only way to stop Russia defeating Ukraine in that time-frame is to get involved in a direct confrontation. S,o people can talk about appeasement all they want, but nothing is gonna change the outcome in Ukraine (just my opinion) other than us having the stomach to go to war with Russia. If we'd have ducked out of WW2 but provided weapons and money to other countries would people have said that wasn't appeasement?

Again though, I accept that I'm not the person with the expertise to make these calls, but it doesn't mean certain topics aren't worthy of debate, and I fully accept that I could be wrong.
 
. We have them though, and judging by NATO boys comments they're not enough of a deterrent anyway as we need to spend a lot more apparently.

As it stands I don't think NATO is doing much to face down this aggression.

NATO absolutely are a deterrent.

If NATO didn’t exist, you’d be seeing the Russians playing the same Donbas card in towns like Narva in Estonia.

The Fins & the Swedes who’ve been staunch neutralists, have got to the point where they believe the only safety from Russian aggression is NATO.
 
We, the west, face a situation of both Russia and China (and their axis) pursuing a vision of global governance where autocratic models, rather than democratic principles, dominate. Russia is trying to reshape Europe’s security architecture and diminish the influence of NATO, while China is seeking a greater role in global institutions and challenging the U.S.-led global order through a mix of economic and military means. It's no secret, they talk openly about this and have been active to this end for years - predating the invasion of Ukraine. It would be foolish to ignore the threats these foes are posing and NATO is key to protecting our western democracies.

There is an aspect of this (especially what is put out by the propagandists of both countries), but an awful lot of what they are doing is aimed at the defence of their own regimes rather than anything else like the overall good of the country.

If you look at Russia for example, its possible to argue that the propaganda could be aimed at shaping / preparing public opinion for significant changes along some sort of master plan but the level of it and the fact that its been like that for 10-15 years now suggests to me that it is more akin to a bilge pump constantly running on a boat that is taking on water; if the regime was confident that it had the actual, active support for what it wants to do then it wouldn't need to put that sort of thing out all the time across so many formats.

Likewise the domestic political changes - the recent decision to remove the elections for mayors for example, and the removal of lower levels of local government - smack of a government that cannot allow any local dissent for fear that it might spiral. On top of what the regime has already done it suggests that these are not the actions of a confident, durable regime, they are the actions of a knowingly brittle one.

European Russia is, lets not forget, smaller than it has been since the 1500s and the regime knows that if control was released it would get smaller still - sorry for saying this for the umpteenth time but the significance for what is happening now of what the regime saw what happened in the Belarus election of 2020 cannot be overstated. They know what would happen if the people there ever had an actual choice; the border of the EU would have been 300 miles from Moscow. What is more, I think there is a good chance that if Belarus and Ukraine joined and there was a peaceful improvement in the lives of the citizens of those two countries that, pretty soon, the Russian people would ask to join as well. This was done without any military threat (they wanted to be more European, not more NATO), which is something an autocratic regime that is focused on appearing militarily strong to justify itself cannot effectively counteract except with military force, which as history tells us can be effective in the short term but usually piles up more problems the longer it lasts.

The regime probably understands this situation as an extreme threat to itself, and it would be heavily encouraged to think in that way by the influences it has abroad which are lets not forget two-way; China and especially the US would absolutely dread an EU that included Russia and would encourage almost any attempt to stop it.

I think Western governments, especially in Europe, need to reevaluate what we are doing to try and resolve this crisis. If we had as a deterrent a viable independent military / military industrial base that could support a major conflict (which everyone surely agrees we need) then we (EU/UK) really could say that NATO in its current form may cause more problems than it solves; it presents a military threat to a regime who requires as justification for its survival a military threat.

If we instead had more of an understanding of the immense and unprecedented advantage that the EU model has over autocratic regimes - the ability to encorporate new states peacefully and with their consent, for the common good at all - then we would understand how regimes like that of Russia are terrified by it. In that sense, expanding the EU elsewhere, such as by actually allowing Turkey and especially Serbia to join would probably be more effective at influencing Russian opinion than any amount of sanctions would be. Russians would be increasingly surrounded by a better idea of how to live and would react to it.
 
Okay then, as I've said previously, I'm not here to tell people they're wrong, I don't have the expertise for that.

Where do you see this situation heading and what will the landscape look like in 4/5 years?

Do I think Russia would have invaded Ukraine if they had nukes? No idea tbh, It's probably unlikely. We have them though, and judging by NATO boys comments they're not enough of a deterrent anyway as we need to spend a lot more apparently.

Do I think they'd have invaded Ukraine if they were part of an alliance? again I don't know, but to say no would be assuming Putin would give a crap about sending millions to their death.

As it stands I don't think NATO is doing much to face down this aggression. Now I'm not saying they're sitting on their hands, but it seems to me that all they're actually doing is slowing the Russian advance. Meanwhile the Russian advance continues, albeit at a pedestrian pace. People using terms like appeasement is a bit daft tbh. We're desperate to avoid direct confrontation with Russia, no amount of money thrown at Ukraine can disguise that fact.

As I said previously, I personally don't believe there's a chance this is still going on in 4/5 years unless there's an escalation. The only way to stop Russia defeating Ukraine in that time-frame is to get involved in a direct confrontation. S,o people can talk about appeasement all they want, but nothing is gonna change the outcome in Ukraine (just my opinion) other than us having the stomach to go to war with Russia. If we'd have ducked out of WW2 but provided weapons and money to other countries would people have said that wasn't appeasement?

Again though, I accept that I'm not the person with the expertise to make these calls, but it doesn't mean certain topics aren't worthy of debate, and I fully accept that I could be wrong.
This war will end IMO sometime next year.
Russia’s economy cannot sustain this level for much longer.

Ukraine will concede territory (Crimea and parts of the Donbas region) but also gain much of it back from Russia again IMO (Kherson and Zaporizhzhia).

As for NATO’s involvement and support for Ukraine, well NATO is responsible for coordinating the delivery of aid to Ukraine from allies and partners - huge logistical effort.

Through NATO’s CAP package they have provided Ukraine with over 800million Euros
to provide Ukraine with non-lethal aid such as body armour, fuel, vehicles, cold weather clothing, secure comms, demining equipment and medical supplies.

NATO had also provided Ukraine with training packages to train its military to NATO standards and help Ukraine build its own security and defence industries.

NATO has provided Ukraine with arms and ammunition. Anti-tank systems, drones, artillery, air defence systems, F-16’s, Tanks etc…

So to say NATO is not doing much to help Ukraine is completely wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top