There is an easier way young padawan.
Current Affairs Ukraine
- Thread starter Mutzo Nutzo
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Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
“NATO-informed” ha, you’re a funny fella Dave.
I’ll ask one more time, just because I’m nice like that. Do you think there’s a chance that the likes of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine etc all joined or wanted to join NATO due to years of Russian inference & ethnic cleansing in their countries?
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
I think there was a pull and a push toward joining. That's what I'm saying and have been saying. Pull in terms of Baltic state elites wanting to be under the western umbrella - no matter what divisions that sowed internally between different citizens; push in terms of wanting to be free of Moscow interference. But you appear to live in some fairy tale world where NATO comes to the rescue of downtrodden people.
NATO's whole reason to exist ended with the fall of the Warsaw Pact. Why did it continue to expand eastwards if not to serve western interests? The unification of Germany was meant to end that. That was the understanding. But 14 more countries were swept up in a relentless drive eastwards toward Russia's borders and we find ourselves in this mess.
russia crumbled financially, to the point of regular disasters because they had over stretched themselves, and it's Nato's fault?
An interesting idea.
An interesting idea.
Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
I think there was a pull and a push toward joining. That's what I'm saying and have been saying. Pull in terms of Baltic state elites wanting to be under the western umbrella - no matter what divisions that sowed internally between different citizens; push in terms of wanting to be free of Moscow interference. But you appear to live in some fairy tale world where NATO comes to the rescue of downtrodden people.
NATO's whole reason to exist ended with the fall of the Warsaw Pact. Why did it continue to expand eastwards if not to serve western interests? The unification of Germany was meant to end that. That was the understanding. But 14 more countries were swept up in a relentless drive eastwards toward Russia's borders and we find ourselves in this mess.
You’re making things up again Dave. I’ve simply given you examples of Russian ethnic cleansing in those countries (which you admit you’d never heard of, so you’re welcome) & in my opinion is probably one of the big reasons why those countries would have joined NATO.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yes, precisely. I welcome this apparent addition of nuance to your understanding of the Baltic states joining NATO.
I've provided you with the balanced answer and perhaps that's now being reflected in your own response? If so, you're welcome.
Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
We’ve come to the agreement that the Baltic states wanted to join NATO because of the Soviet Union & then Russia.
Excellent. Thanks for confirming.
Spadge Vernacular
Player Valuation: £70m
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
But you've yet to elaborate on that being just "one of the big reasons"...
You still have the floor...
Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
I’ve elaborated already on why, y’know the bit where I said about ethnic cleansing Dave? I’d say that was a pretty big reason.
The Baltic countries were already praising NATO in 1949 as it was, referencing “illegal occupation”.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
No acknowledgement that Baltic elites wanted to draw closer to being part of a western market economy and get the boot on the other foot as far as ethnic rivalries are concerned?
Righto.
Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
You’re going down a rabbit hole here Dave, talking about things that weren’t discussed. This is like the 2am Adolf Hitler Wikipedia page phenomenon again.
I stated several historical facts, including operation names, of the Soviets conducting ethnic cleansing (that you downplayed) in the Baltics & simply asked you if you believed that is a good enough reason for them to want to join NATO.
It really was a simple question.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
The initial enquiry you made of me was to ask whether there was good reason the Baltic states wanted to join NATO.
You seem to have agreed (implicitly) with me that there's more than one big reason for this - ie fear of Russian aggression. But you've been reluctant to elaborate on what other motives they had for joining NATO.
So I furnished you with the other salient reasons for that membership: Baltic elites knew their countries were in a good position to come under the umbrella of NATO and the EU and exploit it - organisations they joined one after the other in the first half of 2004. They've done very well economically from this shift under the western umbrella. Being under that umbrella has also allowed them to pass laws to discriminate against ethnic Russians on language and other cultural issues.
Mine is, of course, the fuller answer to the original question you posed.
Maybe we should leave it there for the benefit of others and to remain more focussed on topic?
Eidean
Player Valuation: £8m
Probably a good idea. Have a pleasant evening.
NATO and the EU are completely separate entities. You cannot munge them together as per your argument.
Also ask yourself this simple question. Would the Baltic Nations exist today as independent sovereign nations if they hadn’t joined NATO?
The answer will provide the reasoning for them joining NATO. There is no other reason other than national security and integrity in the face of a real threat to their nationhood.
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