Current Affairs Ukraine

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Damo_1878 said:
Not allowing Ukraine to take the fight to their invaders will prolong the conflict and cause more suffering. Therefore your naive views are mute.

As for your claims on Al-Qaeda. Give examples. Because you're clearly referring to ISIS. They got western equipment they captured from the Iraqi army which was highly corrupt. Nothing to do with the west. Even the evidence you cite is conflated and merely to reinforce your existing views 🤷‍♂️
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You do know you can disagree without being condescending? Or is that not your style 😆
 
supertoffee98 said:
If you are that interested in knowing who I am then feel free to message me 👍 I don't have to prove myself to you but if it'll stop you being paranoid the offer is there. Joined the forum like a month ago, obviously we disagree on this matter but that's what forums are for, are they not
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Paranoid?....yeah OK.

So it's a forum to debate OK

Do you think it's right that a world super power can invade , commit countless war crimes coupled with mass atrocities to it's neighbour.
This all because it's ruthless despot tyrant of a leader that has an out dated vision that the Ukraine ( and no doubt many other satellite counties ) are the property of Mother Russia.
So they just roll over , wave the white flag and hope the aggressors stop being nasty.
Let the world just sit back and not give Ukraine the weapons they need to defend themselves, we should just send plenty of blankets , bottled water & band aid eh ?

Russia has no business in a democratic country that wants to remain totally independent.
There is no negotiating with this tyrant and the only way of a settlement is they withdraw from Ukraine in total.

If you disagree with this it is you that has a problem .
 
blulouie said:
Paranoid?....yeah OK.

So it's a forum to debate OK

Do you think it's right that a world super power can invade , commit countless war crimes coupled with mass atrocities to it's neighbour.
This all because it's ruthless despot tyrant of a leader that has an out dated vision that the Ukraine ( and no doubt many other satellite counties ) are the property of Mother Russia.
So they just roll over , wave the white flag and hope the aggressors stop being nasty.
Let the world just sit back and not give Ukraine the weapons they need to defend themselves, we should just send plenty of blankets , bottled water & band aid eh ?

Russia has no business in a democratic country that wants to remain totally independent.
There is no negotiating with this tyrant and the only way of a settlement is they withdraw from Ukraine in total.

If you disagree with this it is you that has a problem .
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Right, it's getting late so I'm firing through these.

Do I think it's right a world super power can invade a neighbour and commit war crimes? No.

Do I think Ukraine should wave the white flag? No.

Should the world give Ukraine weapons? No. They have their own. They've anticipated supply from the west slowing and have built more.

Should the world give Ukraine aid? Yes and we should take in refugees. That is how we show we are not on Putin's side.

Can I just point out in any genuine peace negotiation, keeping the land captured in the last two years through violence would not be an option for Russia. If that was agreed that would be tantamount to another Munich Pact which would be disastrous. When I say peace I don't mean surrender or appeasement. Putin is a war criminal and kills his political opponents, he should be in the Hague.

I'm off to bed now, I hope that answers some questions for you 👍
 
supertoffee98 said:
I don't think Ukraine going into Russia, claiming Russian territory is the route to a peaceful solution. Do you in your heart of hearts believe this course of action will lead to anything other than more suffering?
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Ukraine haven't claimed Russian territory. You keep saying this as some kind of fact, but it's just a story you're telling yourself because you're trying to equate invader and invadee. Striking military targets inside Russian territory is a legitimate course of action for Ukraine as it will destabilise Russian aggression against themselves. If it brings a weakened Russia to the negotiating table then we might be able to stop the suffering as you apparently want.
 
supertoffee98 said:
Right, it's getting late so I'm firing through these.

Do I think it's right a world super power can invade a neighbour and commit war crimes? No.

Do I think Ukraine should wave the white flag? No.

Should the world give Ukraine weapons? No. They have their own. They've anticipated supply from the west slowing and have built more.

Should the world give Ukraine aid? Yes and we should take in refugees. That is how we show we are not on Putin's side.

Can I just point out in any genuine peace negotiation, keeping the land captured in the last two years through violence would not be an option for Russia. If that was agreed that would be tantamount to another Munich Pact which would be disastrous. When I say peace I don't mean surrender or appeasement. Putin is a war criminal and kills his political opponents, he should be in the Hague.

I'm off to bed now, I hope that answers some questions for you 👍
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I dunno, it just seems like you’ve not thought this through tbh

It’s fine to make a point Ukraine don’t need help with arms because currently they have loads….ok. But when Russia suddenly stepped over the border and invaded, are you stating they should have been left on their own to try fight an impossible war with whatever they had at the time with no help from outside apart from medicine, taking in refugees and possibly hosting some “peace” talks with somebody who you agree is a war criminal

Also stating before that entering Russia is not a path to peace, would that apply to firing missiles at Russian troops who are within Ukraine? I mean it’s violence and death so is not really a path to peace either. Should they also forgo that action?

If keeping land won’t be an option under any peace agreement, if Russia want the land and have a war criminal leader, and if Ukraine are suppose to limit what actions they can take…..then how do we get to this peace agreement where Ukraine gets their land back and Russia goes home?
 
supertoffee98 said:
Right, it's getting late so I'm firing through these.

Do I think it's right a world super power can invade a neighbour and commit war crimes? No.

Do I think Ukraine should wave the white flag? No.

Should the world give Ukraine weapons? No. They have their own. They've anticipated supply from the west slowing and have built more.

Should the world give Ukraine aid? Yes and we should take in refugees. That is how we show we are not on Putin's side.

Can I just point out in any genuine peace negotiation, keeping the land captured in the last two years through violence would not be an option for Russia. If that was agreed that would be tantamount to another Munich Pact which would be disastrous. When I say peace I don't mean surrender or appeasement. Putin is a war criminal and kills his political opponents, he should be in the Hague.

I'm off to bed now, I hope that answers some questions for you 👍
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Bit of a welcome U turn , all bar giving Ukraine the most up to date weaponry to defend itself against a vastly over powering force rather than supplying them with aid such as tents and sticking plasters.

Keeping the land that they have illegally taken in the last 2 years is not an option ?
You do know Putin planned to take the whole of Ukraine in his " special operation" within a week don't you.

You can joust with semantics forever, but the only way this ends is a complete withdrawal of Russian forces and the restoration of Ukraines borders.



Edit
I also feel sorry for the hundreds of thousands of Russian families that have lost their loved ones in a totally needless war to satisfy the tyrant they have in charge of their country.
This is looking more and more like another Afghanistan for Russia.

Sleep tight fella.
 
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supertoffee98 said:
If you are that interested in knowing who I am then feel free to message me 👍 I don't have to prove myself to you but if it'll stop you being paranoid the offer is there. Joined the forum like a month ago, obviously we disagree on this matter but that's what forums are for, are they not
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I think people are being overly harsh on you, it's very tribalistic in the CA at times, Pete gets an absolute barrage daily (and rightfully so mind you). For what it's worth I can see where you are coming from, and understood your POV which originally wasn't probably worded as well as could be. Russian lives should absolutely matter as much as Ukranian lives, these soldiers have been conscripted and many of them won't have one single bit of interest in the war.

Any loss of life is tragic. I understand the tactics the Ukranians are using to relieve pressure elsewhere, and for the greater good it's a valuable tactic, it's just bloody sad. Yes, the Russians started this, but there's innocent people in their land dying too. I appreciate sitting behind my pc screen and believing that everyone can just shake hands and stop is dreamland too.
 
bicycleheader said:
I dunno, it just seems like you’ve not thought this through tbh

It’s fine to make a point Ukraine don’t need help with arms because currently they have loads….ok. But when Russia suddenly stepped over the border and invaded, are you stating they should have been left on their own to try fight an impossible war with whatever they had at the time with no help from outside apart from medicine, taking in refugees and possibly hosting some “peace” talks with somebody who you agree is a war criminal

Also stating before that entering Russia is not a path to peace, would that apply to firing missiles at Russian troops who are within Ukraine? I mean it’s violence and death so is not really a path to peace either. Should they also forgo that action?

If keeping land won’t be an option under any peace agreement, if Russia want the land and have a war criminal leader, and if Ukraine are suppose to limit what actions they can take…..then how do we get to this peace agreement where Ukraine gets their land back and Russia goes home?
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On the first point- yes I've thought it through, you just disagree and that's fine.

On your second point- Ukraine has every right to push Russian forces back out of Ukraine. I still don't think British & US weapons should be used though. It makes us responsible for life lost and heightens global tensions. I also never said peace talks should be done with Putin. He probably couldn't anyway because of the arrest warrant. In peace talks you send delegations. But you need de-escalation first.

On your third point- Firing missiles at Russian troops within Ukrainian territory in itself won't push them back. You'd need the lay of the land and possible civilian casualties. I can only say in my opinion I think it's wrong.

On your last para- The borders should be as it were in the Budapest Memorandum. Predicting the order of events though leading to peace talks is like lottery numbers. Ideally? De-escalation, followed by peace talks/UN-led ceasfire, UN-assisted restoration of democracy to Russia post-Putin with blue helmets, as there was in East Timor.
 
Hinchcliffe's Corner said:
I think people are being overly harsh on you, it's very tribalistic in the CA at times, Pete gets an absolute barrage daily (and rightfully so mind you). For what it's worth I can see where you are coming from, and understood your POV which originally wasn't probably worded as well as could be. Russian lives should absolutely matter as much as Ukranian lives, these soldiers have been conscripted and many of them won't have one single bit of interest in the war.

Any loss of life is tragic. I understand the tactics the Ukranians are using to relieve pressure elsewhere, and for the greater good it's a valuable tactic, it's just bloody sad. Yes, the Russians started this, but there's innocent people in their land dying too. I appreciate sitting behind my pc screen and believing that everyone can just shake hands and stop is dreamland too.
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Appreciate your kind words mate esp sending them at this hour 👍 Hope you are well yourself
 
supertoffee98 said:
You do know you can disagree without being condescending? Or is that not your style 😆
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So you admit you mixed up Al-Qaeda with Isis and therefore misunderstood how they got western equipment (captured from Iraqi army) as your justification to not arm Ukraine that is defending itself from an invasion by its much larger neighbour

Ok :dodgy:
 
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