Current Affairs Ukraine

[Drico]

The European Commission will on Tuesday propose how the EU can boost its arms industry and shift to “war economy mode”. Thierry Breton, the European industry commissioner, will lay out proposals to encourage EU countries to buy more weapons together from European companies, and to help such firms increase production capacity, according to EU officials.

From today's Guardian live blog. No one is doing well unfortunately.

Well, Breton better find a way of funding this weapons expansion, because short of huge borrowing and/or special funds, then citizens will see their health, education, and transport budgets slashed - and that is not going to be politically sustainable. If you want to totally wipe out support for Ukraine, this is the way to do it.

While I have little time for the self-interested criticism of Germany (the idea that they should send Taurus - which could blast Moscow - just because the French and the British have sent something with only half the range and therefore couldn't, is hilarious), but one place where we can all legitimately paste the Germans - or more precisely, their finance minister Christian Lindner of the FDP - is on debt. His ideological and self-defeating determination to ensure a balanced budget with absolutely no debt is going to strangle Germany - and totally throw Ukraine under the bus.

Germany is the third-biggest economy in the world. It is a very rich country. It could borrow at rates lower than any other country on the planet. But this Thatcherite ideologue is a cuckoo in the German government nest. He will be a huge impediment to Breton's plan. He'll be happy enough to throw a bit of money at this - but it will be money previously used for social services. Short of a genuine workable plan to raise the funding needed, this won't get very far. Oh, and the French might also need to accept that as much as it makes sense to buy European, the Euro arms industry is too small at the moment to preclude buying from elsewhere.

 

[mightymoyes]

Nato is growing reckless over Ukraine – and Russia’s German military leak proves it | Simon Jenkins

An intercepted meeting on sending Taurus missiles to Ukraine suggests the west is on the brink of a risky and futile escalation, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

www.theguardian.com

 

[Drico]

Nato is growing reckless over Ukraine – and Russia’s German military leak proves it | Simon Jenkins

An intercepted meeting on sending Taurus missiles to Ukraine suggests the west is on the brink of a risky and futile escalation, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

www.theguardian.com

This is the problem with the necessary defanging of Germany after WW2. Their army is now sclerotic. It's far from the first time they have been caught holding top secret meetings on public networks. The Chancellery office itself does not have a secure line. Every time Chancellor Scholz needs to use a secure line, he has to pop across to a different location. It's a legacy of basically outsourcing all defense to the Americans.

You couldn't trust these people to get anything right. Some of these German army types - including former colonel Robert Kiesewetter - a headbanging right-wing CDU warmonger, beloved of the Guardian and Reuters when they want "balanced comment" to criticise the rightly cautious Scholz - are mad for an escalation. They couldn't even hold a webinar, let alone prosecute a war.

 

[mightymoyes]

This is the problem with the necessary defanging of Germany after WW2. Their army is now sclerotic. It's far from the first time they have been caught holding top secret meetings on public networks. The Chancellery office itself does not have a secure line. Every time Chancellor Scholz needs to use a secure line, he has to pop across to a different location. It's a legacy of basically outsourcing all defense to the Americans.

You couldn't trust these people to get anything right. Some of these German army types - including former colonel Robert Kiesewetter - a headbanging right-wing CDU warmoner, beloved of the Guardian and Reuters when they want "balanced comment" to criticise the rightly cautious Scholz - are made for an escalation. They couldn't even hold a webinar, let alone prosecute a war.

discussing things on open lines isnt the point of the article, the nato loons who want to escalate the war is.

 

[Yarrgh]

discussing things on open lines isnt the point of the article, the nato loons who want to escalate the war is.

Both are big issues.

 

[Yarrgh]

Well, Breton better find a way of funding this weapons expansion, because short of huge borrowing and/or special funds, then citizens will see their health, education, and transport budgets slashed - and that is not going to be politically sustainable. If you want to totally wipe out support for Ukraine, this is the way to do it.

While I have little time for the self-interested criticism of Germany (the idea that they should send Taurus - which could blast Moscow - just because the French and the British have sent something with only half the range and therefore couldn't, is hilarious), but one place where we can all legitimately paste the Germans - or more precisely, their finance minister Christian Lindner of the FDP - is on debt. His ideological and self-defeating determination to ensure a balanced budget with absolutely no debt is going to strangle Germany - and totally throw Ukraine under the bus.

Germany is the third-biggest economy in the world. It is a very rich country. It could borrow at rates lower than any other country on the planet. But this Thatcherite ideologue is a cuckoo in the German government nest. He will be a huge impediment to Breton's plan. He'll be happy enough to throw a bit of money at this - but it will be money previously used for social services. Short of a genuine workable plan to raise the funding needed, this won't get very far. Oh, and the French might also need to accept that as much as it makes sense to buy European, the Euro arms industry is too small at the moment to preclude buying from elsewhere.

How does Russia combat the EU? Let it fight amongst itself.

 

[Drico]

discussing things on open lines isnt the point of the article, the nato loons who want to escalate the war is.

In this case, they are the same people.

 

[Yarrgh]

Does Russia even have a navy anymore? They have been absolutely malleted from all reports.

I bet a lot of navies around the world have learnt a lot about what not to do after seeing the Russians. Also a lot of interesting tactics on how to deal with opposition vessels. I wonder if those lessons have been employed in the middle east.

But on a positive note, we'll be able to sell Russia new ones soon. Whatever happened to the ship that France was selling to the Russians before all this? Just checked, almost a billion France had to pay back but they sold the equivalent 2 ships to Egypt.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

How does Russia combat the EU? Let it fight amongst itself.

Are we the only ones who can see this???

 

[tsubaki]

Well, Breton better find a way of funding this weapons expansion, because short of huge borrowing and/or special funds, then citizens will see their health, education, and transport budgets slashed - and that is not going to be politically sustainable. If you want to totally wipe out support for Ukraine, this is the way to do it.

While I have little time for the self-interested criticism of Germany (the idea that they should send Taurus - which could blast Moscow - just because the French and the British have sent something with only half the range and therefore couldn't, is hilarious), but one place where we can all legitimately paste the Germans - or more precisely, their finance minister Christian Lindner of the FDP - is on debt. His ideological and self-defeating determination to ensure a balanced budget with absolutely no debt is going to strangle Germany - and totally throw Ukraine under the bus.

Germany is the third-biggest economy in the world. It is a very rich country. It could borrow at rates lower than any other country on the planet. But this Thatcherite ideologue is a cuckoo in the German government nest. He will be a huge impediment to Breton's plan. He'll be happy enough to throw a bit of money at this - but it will be money previously used for social services. Short of a genuine workable plan to raise the funding needed, this won't get very far. Oh, and the French might also need to accept that as much as it makes sense to buy European, the Euro arms industry is too small at the moment to preclude buying from elsewhere.

There is no reason why health, education and transport budgets should be slashed - getting a more efficient and capable military production system can be done by standardizing, rationalizing and putting everything on a long term basis so the firms concerned can make the investments themselves with minimal support from government. When equipment is purchased under this scheme, the production should be shared in a much more comprehensive way than before - so for example of the Caesar howitzer is selected under the programme to equip everyones artillery, then all the bidding firms build them rather than just the French. If the new Typhoon is adopted, then its made by SAAB, Dassault and everyone else. If the HK416 is the standard battle rifle of the infantry, the whole continent makes it.

Doing that on a pan-EU basis (or more ideally a pan-European NATO members including Turkey) will be better for everyone and much cheaper than doing it individually, as well as adding much more capability into the system.

I would also take this opportunity to pool the smaller militaries together with their neighbours in preparation for the creation of an EU force as well, certainly in the case of the Benelux countries, the Baltics and parts of SE Europe. Shared navies, air forces and air defences are needed there.

There is no reason at all why the European part of NATO shouldn't have a capable, well equipped and well trained conventional collective army of a million men that can deter any future craziness from elsewhere. It would possibly cost no more and may even cost less than the separate systems we have now.

 

[tsubaki]

Does Russia even have a navy anymore? They have been absolutely malleted from all reports.

I bet a lot of navies around the world have learnt a lot about what not to do after seeing the Russians. Also a lot of interesting tactics on how to deal with opposition vessels. I wonder if those lessons have been employed in the middle east.

But on a positive note, we'll be able to sell Russia new ones soon. Whatever happened to the ship that France was selling to the Russians before all this? Just checked, almost a billion France had to pay back but they sold the equivalent 2 ships to Egypt.

TBF this does sound like what happened after torpedoes first came on the scene - I'd imagine the navies of the world will be looking at a similar response to what the Victorians did when they developed the destroyer, small vessels with lots of CIWS type guns, or swarms of protective drones carried aboard a drone carrier.

 

[Yarrgh]

Are we the only ones who can see this???

Shhhh. Why worry about it when individual governments can make grandstanding statements aimed at their home audiences and rile up their neighbours and actually do very little?

It's almost exactly like a certain Russian is living up to his eminence grose rep at the moment. That's a reference to his ex-intelligence days for those old school Putin watchers.

 

[Drico]

There is no reason why health, education and transport budgets should be slashed - getting a more efficient and capable military production system can be done by standardizing, rationalizing and putting everything on a long term basis so the firms concerned can make the investments themselves with minimal support from government. When equipment is purchased under this scheme, the production should be shared in a much more comprehensive way than before - so for example of the Caesar howitzer is selected under the programme to equip everyones artillery, then all the bidding firms build them rather than just the French. If the new Typhoon is adopted, then its made by SAAB, Dassault and everyone else. If the HK416 is the standard battle rifle of the infantry, the whole continent makes it.

Doing that on a pan-EU basis (or more ideally a pan-European NATO members including Turkey) will be better for everyone and much cheaper than doing it individually, as well as adding much more capability into the system.

I would also take this opportunity to pool the smaller militaries together with their neighbours in preparation for the creation of an EU force as well, certainly in the case of the Benelux countries, the Baltics and parts of SE Europe. Shared navies, air forces and air defences are needed there.

There is no reason at all why the European part of NATO shouldn't have a capable, well equipped and well trained conventional collective army of a million men that can deter any future craziness from elsewhere. It would possibly cost no more and may even cost less than the separate systems we have now.

There is a simple reason: European countries don't trust each other. They duplicate each other's capabilities. The French and the Germans can't even agree on what tank to produce or if they should coalesce on other hardware. Until that changes, it will be social services that get hacked as money is sprayed around inefficiently. We need an EU army - but I can't see that happening any time soon. I agree with the thrust of your post - but don't underestimate the dysfunction and national competition in the EU. And that's before the British or Americans are even involved.

This article previews the plundering of social welfare budgets ahead:

Nato has no choice but to strengthen its bulwarks against Putin

An ageing Russian ruler surrounded by sycophants may embark on even more reckless moves in coming years

www.ft.com

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Nato is growing reckless over Ukraine – and Russia’s German military leak proves it | Simon Jenkins

An intercepted meeting on sending Taurus missiles to Ukraine suggests the west is on the brink of a risky and futile escalation, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

www.theguardian.com

Utter garbage reporting there from the Guardian. Bin material only

 

[Drico]

Utter garbage reporting there from the Guardian. Bin material only

What would one expect of Simon Jenkins, the Brexiter with buyer's remorse. Nevertheless, some of his points are correct. If Western Europe and the US truly wanted to protect Ukraine, it would have been in NATO decades ago. It isn't because nobody is risking nuclear war to protect it. It's not a noble position, but it has a self-serving logic. In the end, countries do not have friends. They have interests. And the threat of Putin invading the Baltics will always be absorbed by the West more palatably than the threat of a direct nuclear war with Putin. NATO drew its line in the sand. That's where the possibility of confronting Russia directly will be considered. Everything else is damage limitation.