Current Affairs Ukraine

[bicycleheader]

You are correct. They are all steadfastly opposed to Putin, not pedalling and supporting his propaganda, and are all committed to calling out his illegal behaviour and atrocities at any given opportunities.

Definitely not supporting him at all

Their point seems fair to me and doesn't live in a complete other universe to what your general stance seems to be.

I don't know why you've knowingly completely misrepresented what they are saying rather than just discuss it?

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Not really, but by all means keep trying to miss the point. Your lot are after all at least half the problem here.

What point, that you suggest that Putin is not using vested interests and useful idiots to defend and seed autocrats and dictators globally and that includes useful idiots like Carlson and vested interests like Musk and Trump?

Do you seriously think that Putin and Trump are not strategically aligned? Do you think that for Russia that their key challenge globally is not the USA?

And if those three are not leaning into Putin do you think that they are calling him out and working against him?

And why are Evertonians at least half of the problem?

 

[verreauxi]

TBF I think (and sorry for repeating myself) that is such a misleading belief to have.

The Russian government just recognises what the Saudi, Israeli governments and various domestic business groups recognise - that the way US (and UK) politics works nowadays is that things are ran by incompetent people who lack the personal confidence, ability and genuine support to achieve any success in politics and so have to use money and networking to get into power. If we ever want to solve the horrendous mess these people have gotten us into, this system must be removed.

I don't think it is misleading. The Russian influence on US elections in 2016 and 2020 has been thoroughly documented. This was different, at least to me, because rather than influencing top-down actors (via politicians, lobbyists--though Russia also did this, but so did other countries), they influenced the common voter on unprecedented levels.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I don't think it is misleading. The Russian influence on US elections in 2016 and 2020 has been thoroughly documented. This was different, at least to me, because rather than influencing top-down actors (via politicians, lobbyists--though Russia also did this, but so did other countries), they influenced the common voter on unprecedented levels.

Also worth noting the seed of a lot of the tactical dividing lines drawn by these culture wars and Putinisms core ideology. I am surprised if posters on here are oblivious to what is going on.

 

[tsubaki]

I don't think it is misleading. The Russian influence on US elections in 2016 and 2020 has been thoroughly documented. This was different, at least to me, because rather than influencing top-down actors (via politicians, lobbyists--though Russia also did this, but so did other countries), they influenced the common voter on unprecedented levels.

Did they, though?

I mean we all saw the things pushed on social media, the sermons in crazy evangelical churches and on talk radio that backed Trump in 2016 and 2020. None of those things were created by or (to any great extent) funded by Russia, nor did they feature that much pro-Russian content. Trump was not funded to the hundreds of millions by Russians; that came from the usual GOP donor classes. It was not Russian state media that pumped pro-Trump content into US homes night after night, that was Fox and later on the zoo of pro-Trump networks that did that.

The influences on the "common voter" were many, but the vast majority of those influences affecting the Trump base are entirely domestic in nature and would have been there even if Russia did nothing in 2016 or 2020.

 

[tsubaki]

What point, that you suggest that Putin is not using vested interests and useful idiots to defend and seed autocrats and dictators globally and that includes useful idiots like Carlson and vested interests like Musk and Trump?

Do you seriously think that Putin and Trump are not strategically aligned? Do you think that for Russia that their key challenge globally is not the USA?

And if those three are not leaning into Putin do you think that they are calling him out and working against him?

And why are Evertonians at least half of the problem?

No, I don't think Putin and Trump are strategically aligned. The trend towards autocracy we are seeing now is one we have frequently seen in history when ruling classes start to be challenged by events and so cluster around one of their own as a strongman who can transgress norms and stabilize things for their interests; Putin himself is a good example of this but there is also Trump himself, and Blair was another.

Putin probably welcomes Trump and Trumpism as heralding disorder within the US and therefore a reduction in the global role that the US plays (especially the role it has played post-1990) but he'd welcome any development that did that.

As for Russia, I've said this before but I think the key challenge for Putin (who is of course different to Russia) is not the USA, its the EU. A close and stable relationship with the EU and Russia would inevitably result in Russia joining of its own free will. That would probably benefit your average Russian and European to a massive extent, but it would ruin Putin and his circle and completely knock the US and China off the perch they are fighting over.

Finally by "your lot" I mean the centrists, whose failure at every level of governing is remarkable.

 

[verreauxi]

Did they, though?

I mean we all saw the things pushed on social media, the sermons in crazy evangelical churches and on talk radio that backed Trump in 2016 and 2020. None of those things were created by or (to any great extent) funded by Russia, nor did they feature that much pro-Russian content. Trump was not funded to the hundreds of millions by Russians; that came from the usual GOP donor classes. It was not Russian state media that pumped pro-Trump content into US homes night after night, that was Fox and later on the zoo of pro-Trump networks that did that.

The influences on the "common voter" were many, but the vast majority of those influences affecting the Trump base are entirely domestic in nature and would have been there even if Russia did nothing in 2016 or 2020.

Yeah, perhaps my use of "influenced" the common voter was an overreach. They certainly engaged in unprecedented levels of social media interference, as well as hacking into all 50 states election systems, and had prepared in advance blitzes of additional social media trolling if Clinton had won in 2016 by suggesting the election was stolen. What they engaged in was designed to influence voter persuasions. As to whether Russia actually influenced US voters, over an above the usual content from US-based MSM (or over and above their already in-place political biases) is not as well documented, but the only evidence I can find on this suggests it was minimal. Though I would add that the margins between the two mainstream party candidates are pretty thin, so even some amount of influence could turn a key county or state.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

It is very difficult to see a good outcome, but it will only happen if a large number of people who find themselves at the top of Western society recognize that they are in fact the problem and are the ones who need to urgently change their ways.

Not going to happen, though.
Politicians, their parties and their followers are obsessively pitching themselves against their opponents in almost personal battles. No one is willing (or able) to stand up and sort this out. It will only be huge suffering that will result in reflection and change (like after WW2).

Aren’t I a barrel of laughs

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

No, I don't think Putin and Trump are strategically aligned. The trend towards autocracy we are seeing now is one we have frequently seen in history when ruling classes start to be challenged by events and so cluster around one of their own as a strongman who can transgress norms and stabilize things for their interests; Putin himself is a good example of this but there is also Trump himself, and Blair was another.

Putin probably welcomes Trump and Trumpism as heralding disorder within the US and therefore a reduction in the global role that the US plays (especially the role it has played post-1990) but he'd welcome any development that did that.

As for Russia, I've said this before but I think the key challenge for Putin (who is of course different to Russia) is not the USA, its the EU. A close and stable relationship with the EU and Russia would inevitably result in Russia joining of its own free will. That would probably benefit your average Russian and European to a massive extent, but it would ruin Putin and his circle and completely knock the US and China off the perch they are fighting over.

Finally by "your lot" I mean the centrists, whose failure at every level of governing is remarkable.

I have been out on the lash but before I laugh again, are you suggesting that Mr Jan 6 Trump is wanting to follow a democratic rules based approach? Is that how you see Putin operating too, rules based democracy. I am sure that Putin is just happy that his plans look like they might come to fruition under Trump by a twist of fate.

Are you chosing to ignore, or simpy can not see Putins role in the rise of autocracies et al globally.

What do you imagine Trumps "hopes" for Europe and NATO are, and for Europes USA shield against the Russian aggression that Ukraine are now suffering. For clarity, I am not asking about your opinion regarding a potential EU army.

When you say, "transgress toward what norms... and stabilize things for their interests", do you mean those pushed by propogandists likes of Trump and Carlson on platforms such as X owned and aligned by Musk?

My lot being those that would like to see politics as it is binned? My lot that would like to see gas, electric, water, public transport and the like nationalised? To see the NHS properly funded and a national bank with heavy regulation on private banks etc. For UK resources to be put into a soveriegn fund. Centrists like me, yeah?

The problem in reality is and always will be your lot, and you know who you are.

 

[tsubaki]

I have been out on the lash but before I laugh again, are you suggesting that Mr Jan 6 Trump is wanting to follow a democratic rules based approach? Is that how you see Putin operating too, rules based democracy. I am sure that Putin is just happy that his plans look like they might come to fruition under Trump by a twist of fate.

Are you chosing to ignore, or simpy can not see Putins role in the rise of autocracies et al globally.

What do you imagine Trumps "hopes" for Europe and NATO are, and for Europes USA shield against the Russian aggression that Ukraine are now suffering. For clarity, I am not asking about your opinion regarding a potential EU army.

When you say, "transgress toward what norms... and stabilize things for their interests", do you mean those pushed by propogandists likes of Trump and Carlson on platforms such as X owned and aligned by Musk?

My lot being those that would like to see politics as it is binned? My lot that would like to see gas, electric, water, public transport and the like nationalised? To see the NHS properly funded and a national bank with heavy regulation on private banks etc. For UK resources to be put into a soveriegn fund. Centrists like me, yeah?

The problem in reality is and always will be your lot, and you know who you are.

Sorry but this really makes no sense whatever, especially the last bit. Are you a socialist now then?

Putin is not the spider at the centre of the web of everything wrong with the world. Saying that he is causes one to ignore all the things wrong with our societies that have led us directly into this mess.

 

[bicycleheader]

I have been out on the lash but before I laugh again, are you suggesting that Mr Jan 6 Trump is wanting to follow a democratic rules based approach? Is that how you see Putin operating too, rules based democracy. I am sure that Putin is just happy that his plans look like they might come to fruition under Trump by a twist of fate.

Are you chosing to ignore, or simpy can not see Putins role in the rise of autocracies et al globally.

What do you imagine Trumps "hopes" for Europe and NATO are, and for Europes USA shield against the Russian aggression that Ukraine are now suffering. For clarity, I am not asking about your opinion regarding a potential EU army.

When you say, "transgress toward what norms... and stabilize things for their interests", do you mean those pushed by propogandists likes of Trump and Carlson on platforms such as X owned and aligned by Musk?

My lot being those that would like to see politics as it is binned? My lot that would like to see gas, electric, water, public transport and the like nationalised? To see the NHS properly funded and a national bank with heavy regulation on private banks etc. For UK resources to be put into a soveriegn fund. Centrists like me, yeah?

The problem in reality is and always will be your lot, and you know who you are.

This is the same again, I can't see where you are getting all this stuff from when reading what they have posted. Maybe somebody else could say otherwise

I might be over simplifying it but I don't see how it's a bad thing to say the people who opened the gates of London and Washington to Putin, his people and their money over the years are the bigger problem and would've been ruining their respective countries regardless of whether Vladimir Hibbert decided to tap in the open goal they laid on. That too much focus on him takes deserved focus from them.

The degrees of influence on where we are in the world today are certainly arguable but I don't know why that would be a general viewpoint you'd want to shut down.

The stuff calling each other centrists, socialists, Owen Jones fanboy or whatever is beyond both of you

 

[Yarrgh]

<snip>

The stuff calling each other centrists, socialists, Owen Jones fanboy or whatever is beyond both of you

Very much this. For a pair of smart lads, they can sure act like dopes at times!

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Sorry but this really makes no sense whatever, especially the last bit. Are you a socialist now then?

Putin is not the spider at the centre of the web of everything wrong with the world. Saying that he is causes one to ignore all the things wrong with our societies that have led us directly into this mess.

I think viewing the voting public through the lens of left and right, as has been discussed on here previously, does not describe the realities of the world wide web generations.

Putin, the KGB foreign intelligence officer of 16 years and was shaped in the arena of “active measures” and the tactics of “Operation Infektion”. Thinking about the www and global news networks Putin has possibly more than any other state actor mastered this tool. Putin launched Russia Today, an English language global news channel and the Internet Research Agency (troll farms). Using such measures, Trump has been Putin’s greatest triumph. It is quite impressive. If you don’t know that Putin is a spider at the centre of a global web, then I’d suggest that you haven’t been looking. He might not be the source of all the worlds ills but he is for the targets of his choosing such as the US and Europe and we could say that this has impacted the old lens of left and right re Brexit etc.

 

[efcfanwirral]

Not going to happen, though.
Politicians, their parties and their followers are obsessively pitching themselves against their opponents in almost personal battles. No one is willing (or able) to stand up and sort this out. It will only be huge suffering that will result in reflection and change (like after WW2).

Aren’t I a barrel of laughs

I'd say plenty of suffering is happening now, but to those who are at the bottom of the inequality spectrum so most don't see or acknowledge it

I have been out on the lash but before I laugh again, are you suggesting that Mr Jan 6 Trump is wanting to follow a democratic rules based approach? Is that how you see Putin operating too, rules based democracy. I am sure that Putin is just happy that his plans look like they might come to fruition under Trump by a twist of fate.

Are you chosing to ignore, or simpy can not see Putins role in the rise of autocracies et al globally.

What do you imagine Trumps "hopes" for Europe and NATO are, and for Europes USA shield against the Russian aggression that Ukraine are now suffering. For clarity, I am not asking about your opinion regarding a potential EU army.

When you say, "transgress toward what norms... and stabilize things for their interests", do you mean those pushed by propogandists likes of Trump and Carlson on platforms such as X owned and aligned by Musk?

My lot being those that would like to see politics as it is binned? My lot that would like to see gas, electric, water, public transport and the like nationalised? To see the NHS properly funded and a national bank with heavy regulation on private banks etc. For UK resources to be put into a soveriegn fund. Centrists like me, yeah?

The problem in reality is and always will be your lot, and you know who you are.

Would have to get the whole Western world to change at the same time, otherwise we'd become an enemy of America and therefore most other Western countries. I read "A Very British Coup" last week, and I'd imagine that would be quite close to the truth if a UK government went down that road...

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Trump and Vlad

The United States and Russia aren't allies. But Trump and Putin are. | Brookings

Presidents Trump and Putin have a common view of the liberal world order that the United States helped create seven decades ago. Both leaders seek its destruction.

www.brookings.edu

Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House

Exclusive: Documents suggest Russia launched secret multi-agency effort to interfere in US democracy

www.theguardian.com