Current Affairs Ukraine

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davids said:
And as for the Bush Blair question being nonsense....they found those pesky weapons of mass destruction yet? I await your estimate of the number of innocent Ukrainian women and children that will be acceptable to sacrifice (but I won't hold my breath)🙄
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I don't and have never supported the war in Iraq or anywhere else the US sticks its nose in. But this was a war of Russian aggression, basically them "pulling a US", and I am considering it on its own terms. You think the Ukrainians who have had family members die and watched their cities get destroyed give two flying f**ks what Tony Blair and Bush did two decades ago?
 
Prevenger17 said:
I don't and have never supported the war in Iraq or anywhere else the US sticks its nose in. But this was a war of Russian aggression, basically them "pulling a US", and I am considering it on its own terms. You think the Ukrainians who have had family members die and watched their cities get destroyed give two flying f**ks what Tony Blair and Bush did two decades ago?
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They obviously wouldn't,my point was the language used by the media. Putin is a war criminal no doubt,so why aren't Bush, Blair and cohorts not brought to book for what are arguably worse crimes against humanity (based on body count) And you still haven't given a number of the innocent Ukrainian women and children who need to be sacrificed to eject Russia from Crimea and the Donbass yet. Just a ballpark will do.
 
Prevenger17 said:
Hey Ukrainians, give Russia what they want because, you know, Blair and Bush 20 years ago.

Thanks Davids, what an incredible thought
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Nowhere have I ever suggested Russia should "get what they want" My post was in respect of the leaked American intelligence documents. Russia has proved itself to be militarily inept,I mean they've just cut off the water supply to the Crimea. Any chance of a number of civilians to be sacrificed yet?
 
davids said:
And you still haven't given a number of the innocent Ukrainian women and children who need to be sacrificed to eject Russia from Crimea and the Donbass yet. Just a ballpark will do.
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I'm ignoring it, because it's the dumbest part of your dumb posts. I don't want to see any Ukrainians die, woman or child. But I am saying that your idea of handing over land to Russia with a slap on the wrist and a "bUt WhAdAbOuT BlAiR aNd BuSh", then expecting Ukrainians to accept that is even less probable than the other option: Putin getting tf out of there and leaving them to rebuild their country. If anyone has been banging the drum for Ukrainian deaths, it's you
 
davids said:
They obviously wouldn't,my point was the language used by the media. Putin is a war criminal no doubt,so why aren't Bush, Blair and cohorts not brought to book for what are arguably worse crimes against humanity (based on body count) And you still haven't given a number of the innocent Ukrainian women and children who need to be sacrificed to eject Russia from Crimea and the Donbass yet. Just a ballpark will do.
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It is functionally impossible to try a president of the United States at the ICC or a temporary UN body such as the ICTY (this tried Milosevic), seeing how the UN is in New York. Think about the problem for a minute, and you should see why. If Bush can't be tried, Blair can't be tried.

In practice, the ICC only has jurisdiction over those cases where a government (or foreign occupier) wants to wash their hands of the result. Saddam Hussein never faced the ICC. The US, via the government installed in Iraq, dealt with him. In general, a democracy will not cough up a former head of state or commander-in-chief, because they don't want to set the precedent of using international organizations to settle domestic political disputes. This is also why the hurdle to try such a person in a domestic court for criminal actions while in office is so high.
 
Martin Alvito said:
It is functionally impossible to try a president of the United States at the ICC or a temporary UN body such as the ICTY (this tried Milosevic), seeing how the UN is in New York. Think about the problem for a minute, and you should see why. If Bush can't be tried, Blair can't be tried.

In practice, the ICC only has jurisdiction over those cases where a government (or foreign occupier) wants to wash their hands of the result. Saddam Hussein never faced the ICC. The US, via the government installed in Iraq, dealt with him. In general, a democracy will not cough up a former head of state or commander-in-chief, because they don't want to set the precedent of using international organizations to settle domestic political disputes. This is also why the hurdle to try such a person in a domestic court for criminal actions while in office is so high.
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Neither Bush or Blair are in office,they are busy making millions on the after dinner circuit. But they will never answer for their crimes,just as Putin won't answer for his. After all if you believe the western propaganda machine he has only months to live.
 
Prevenger17 said:
I'm ignoring it, because it's the dumbest part of your dumb posts. I don't want to see any Ukrainians die, woman or child. But I am saying that your idea of handing over land to Russia with a slap on the wrist and a "bUt WhAdAbOuT BlAiR aNd BuSh", then expecting Ukrainians to accept that is even less probable than the other option: Putin getting tf out of there and leaving them to rebuild their country. If anyone has been banging the drum for Ukrainian deaths, it's you
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You keep twisting and turning but the US know that there is no quick outcome to this and it can only end in stalemate so civilians killed now serve no purpose other than for propaganda. All wars end up with territory being given up,So the sooner some meaningful talks start the better for the innocents at risk.
 
davids said:
Neither Bush or Blair are in office,they are busy making millions on the after dinner circuit. But they will never answer for their crimes,just as Putin won't answer for his. After all if you believe the western propaganda machine he has only months to live.
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Former presidents and prime ministers have a whole bunch of secrets locked in their heads. This is one big reason countries are loath to cough them up.

I can imagine a world where Putin faces the ICC, but it's a weird one. All of the following has to obtain: Putin falls but is not killed in the process, the new government has already drained him of everything he knows, and either they want him dead but are reluctant to do the deed themselves due to instability, or they receive a large enough side payment the way the Serbs did when they coughed up Milosevic.

In practice, only the former leaders of small potatoes countries on the world stage and the former leaders of a big fish that has just suffered abject military defeat can be tried for crimes against humanity.
 
Tennessee Blue Mike said:
Great post! You know your history.
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Other than that the majority of the fighting and civilian casualties have been in the Donbass which is predominantly ethnic Russian. Anyway yesterdays action at the dam and it's knock on effect to the nuclear power plant at Zaporizhzhya might make it all moot quite quickly.
 
Martin Alvito said:
Former presidents and prime ministers have a whole bunch of secrets locked in their heads. This is one big reason countries are loath to cough them up.

I can imagine a world where Putin faces the ICC, but it's a weird one. All of the following has to obtain: Putin falls but is not killed in the process, the new government has already drained him of everything he knows, and either they want him dead but are reluctant to do the deed themselves due to instability, or they receive a large enough side payment the way the Serbs did when they coughed up Milosevic.

In practice, only the former leaders of small potatoes countries on the world stage and the former leaders of a big fish that has just suffered abject military defeat can be tried for crimes against humanity.
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True, which made all the ICC nonsense nothing but western posturing.
 
davids said:
You keep twisting and turning but the US know that there is no quick outcome to this and it can only end in stalemate so civilians killed now serve no purpose other than for propaganda. All wars end up with territory being given up,So the sooner some meaningful talks start the better for the innocents at risk.
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You aren't reading a single thing I'm saying you gormless twit. I don't care about the US. If the Ukraine decided to call for a ceasefire and cede whatever land Russia wanted, I would support that. But most of the Ukraine have clearly considered the position they're in, despise the enemy that has put them in it, and have decided to fight and I support that too, not that it matters what I do and don't support.

It's their decision, and it probably makes sense to them to keep fighting. Russia will just come back for more when they've regrouped in a few years time. They started this, and any decent minded person should think the onus is on them to get out of the Ukraine and maybe even pay for some of the damages in the process.

You don't get to post that the Ukraine are Nazis and all the other garbage you've wrote about the country and say you just care about the women and children at the end. We all know what you are you clueless bellend
 
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