Current Affairs Ukraine

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Mutzo Nutzo said:
I guess there were a lot of internal politics at play in what is a very weak German government.

Personally as soon as the U.K. sgreed to ship the CR2’s then the game changed and the Germans were simply delaying the inevitable.
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I actually thought about this and really believe we are doing this in phases to not expend total resources all at once. Also, to temper the nuclear rhetoric and someone go balmy and go rogue to cause extreme damage. Surely, you would think these news spokesmen to consider executing a nuclear response to Germany would have a response in kind. Russia must feel the West is uneducated and will cower to loud voices.
I do feel with the tanks being in play Crimea will now be taken back. When the bombers and fighters are called into the theatre Russia will be in play.
U.K. has been upfront and put substance behind their rhetoric and not hollow in anyway.
 
stipe said:
Mate, its horrible war of attrition there, Ukrainian vehicles getting destroyed in same way and in masses, and most importantly Ukraine doesn't have air superiority. Everything is so saturated with AA defense that not even Russians who got shitton of planes are risking them too much, mostly using missiles from Russian part of the border.

This is not World of Tanks or War Thunder and tanks fighting other tanks is rare occurrence. Also those Leopards are older one, not modern like A27, this is same type of Leopard that Turks used in Syria and got wiped by simple RPGs and obsolete Kornets used by ISIL.

In the end of the day im just random guy on internet and wtf i know, but both sides suffering horrible losses there, both Russian and Ukrainian Telegram channels trying to outdo themselves showing more gruesome images. Not to mention Chief of Staff of US Army (General Milley) said in November that Russian and Ukrainian losses are similar, both above 100 000.
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You have to understand Russia isn't backing down in any way. Ukraine is fighting for their existence as other countries would if they fell. Russia doesn't understand weakness. This may not be a quick fix but perhaps make them pause to come to a bargaining table.

The older Leopard and Abrams are still better than what the Russians have on offer. They (Russia) are holding back their better tanks which are not in great supply corruption has been the greatest enemy of Putin's war machine.
 
stipe said:
Mate, its horrible war of attrition there, Ukrainian vehicles getting destroyed in same way and in masses, and most importantly Ukraine doesn't have air superiority. Everything is so saturated with AA defense that not even Russians who got shitton of planes are risking them too much, mostly using missiles from Russian part of the border.

This is not World of Tanks or War Thunder and tanks fighting other tanks is rare occurrence. Also those Leopards are older one, not modern like A27, this is same type of Leopard that Turks used in Syria and got wiped by simple RPGs and obsolete Kornets used by ISIL.

In the end of the day im just random guy on internet and wtf i know, but both sides suffering horrible losses there, both Russian and Ukrainian Telegram channels trying to outdo themselves showing more gruesome images. Not to mention Chief of Staff of US Army (General Milley) said in November that Russian and Ukrainian losses are similar, both above 100 000.

Anyway we will see in few months how good are these tanks and how much it was hype and online shithoussery of "German Panzers on the prowl" and "America [Poor language removed] yeah". Hopefully Ukrainians use them properly and not like those Saudis in Yemen
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Those were all 2A4s, Ukraine is getting 2A6s which are more modern. Also Turkey by all accounts used their tanks with strategy that wasn't suited to the situation.

That said, it remains to be seen how effective they will be ?‍♂️
 
Tennessee Blue Mike said:
You have to understand Russia isn't backing down in any way. Ukraine is fighting for their existence as other countries would if they fell. Russia doesn't understand weakness. This may not be a quick fix but perhaps make them pause to come to a bargaining table.

The older Leopard and Abrams are still better than what the Russians have on offer. They (Russia) are holding back their better tanks which are not in great supply corruption has been the greatest enemy of Putin's war machine.
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I agree fully that it gonna help, everything helps, just i don't believe 100 tanks gonna decide war of this size and viciousness. Its just crazy what is going on there, and above all, scale of it. Maybe if America decide to send actual hundreds of (unused) Abrams instead few dozens
 
devogue said:
Those were all 2A4s, Ukraine is getting 2A6s which are more modern. Also Turkey by all accounts used their tanks with strategy that wasn't suited to the situation.

That said, it remains to be seen how effective they will be ?‍♂️
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Interesting, i thought A24 are the one mostly in use by other European countries, i know Germany sold a lot of tanks cheaply after end of Cold War. I believe Polish one are variant of that. Also there was big scandal few years ago when they refused to upgrade Turkish Leopards.
 
stipe said:
Interesting, i thought A24 are the one mostly in use by other European countries, i know Germany sold them cheaply after end of Cold War. I believe Polish one are variant of that.
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Couple of other countries also donating 2A6s as well like Portugal. Ukraine is getting 2A4s from Poland though so they are getting a mix of Leopard variants. Also getting 2Es from Spain probably.
 
stipe said:
Interesting, i thought A24 are the one mostly in use by other European countries, i know Germany sold a lot of tanks cheaply after end of Cold War. I believe Polish one are variant of that. Also there was big scandal few years ago when they refused to upgrade Turkish Leopards.
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Sweden is sending a lot of upgraded Leopards. They upgraded them to their own requirements and I believe they are 2A6 compatible.

The Polish ones have also been upgraded in 2018 These are supposed to be between 2A5 and 2A6 specs - so very capable bits of kit.

Holland has 76 2A6 leopards just sitting around in storage after they opted to swap them out for CV90 and boxer last year - these will also ship to Ukraine
 
stipe said:
I agree fully that it gonna help, everything helps, just i don't believe 100 tanks gonna decide war of this size and viciousness. Its just crazy what is going on there, and above all, scale of it. Maybe if America decide to send actual hundreds of (unused) Abrams instead few dozens
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No, you're absolutely correct but it is a start. Sad fact the World is watching every move and trying to learn what caused all this unprovoked attack on a sovereign territory because of its hatred of NATO. It seems Putin's more vocal critics have been flying out of windows or killing themselves something isn't totally adding up. Then the tirade against the Baltic States somewhere the line has to be drawn.

Hopes are that the even the advent of a 100 tanks along with the Bradley's can limit more loss of life by pushing the lines further out.
 
devogue said:


Couple of other countries also donating 2A6s as well like Portugal. Ukraine is getting 2A4s from Poland though so they are getting a mix of Leopard variants. Also getting 2Es from Spain probably.
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Hopefully they work for what they were designed, both Leopards and Abrams were originally designed to fight Soviet tanks in that supposed and mythical battle of Fulda Gap (if Cold War turned to Hot).
 
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