Current Affairs Ukraine

[tsubaki]

Apparently very hard for a lot of people, including people in power, to understand that you cannot do diplomacy when one side doesn't believe in the other side's right to exist.

Is that actually true though? I appreciate there are some loons (and some senior people) who have on occasion said things that imply that, but often the same people have said other things that don't imply it.

I mean for all the "you can't do diplomacy" there has been a lot (but not enough) diplomacy being done

 

[TheBigIguana]

Is that actually true though? I appreciate there are some loons (and some senior people) who have on occasion said things that imply that, but often the same people have said other things that don't imply it.

I mean for all the "you can't do diplomacy" there has been a lot (but not enough) diplomacy being done

Yeah you're right, I mean the people who want to find a diplomatic solution and think it can happen tomorrow.

It can't because at best Russia doesn't believe Ukraine has the right to exist with all of the territory that belongs to it. But I'll be honest this feels as much a genocide as a war to me.

 

[PhilM]

Yeah you're right, I mean the people who want to find a diplomatic solution and think it can happen tomorrow.

It can't because at best Russia doesn't believe Ukraine has the right to exist with all of the territory that belongs to it. But I'll be honest this feels as much a genocide as a war to me.

Aye.

There is diplomacy going on, but as previously mentioned on here that'll mostly be dealt with lower down the chain with the top tiers acknowledging it, at best.

We're not going to get a diplomatic resolution to this war any time soon because those at the top on both sides are, rightly or wrongly, unable* to do so.

*or unwilling.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

The Iranians (particularly the women) are showing how spineless the Russian population truly is

Absolutely. Iranians are going out to face beatings, bullets and lengthy terms in prison. I'd say that Russians in Russia might not have the same fortitude but there is no excuse for those that ran away from mobilisation. They are showing themselves to be a disgraceful people who seem to lack a moral compass.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

TBF they aren't. The Iranian populace are dealing with a regime that was unpopular beforehand, and which has just committed one senseless act which has wound nearly everyone who is related to a female up. On top of that they've killed more women and kids whilst also failing to stop any of the protests or (more dangerously for them) the non-compliance.

The Russian state hasn't (yet) done anything equivalent to the Russian people - in fact, what they've done (rallied the people around a "threat" which they've overhyped for their own ends) is basically Nationalism 101 and it is depressingly effective; we've seen it work multiple times here for example (indeed that was what Johnson was trying to do when he was going to Kiev every few weeks).

I realise that I am guilty also but you consistently neglect to add "in my opinion".

 

[TheBigIguana]

Aye.

There is diplomacy going on, but as previously mentioned on here that'll mostly be dealt with lower down the chain with the top tiers acknowledging it, at best.

We're not going to get a diplomatic resolution to this war any time soon because those at the top on both sides are, rightly or wrongly, unable* to do so.

*or unwilling.

I just don't really like when this turns into a both sides thing. Ukraine is under no obligation to come to the table and agree to give up their territory and they aren't asking for war, or trying to extend the war or anything like that by not doing so.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Is that actually true though? I appreciate there are some loons (and some senior people) who have on occasion said things that imply that, but often the same people have said other things that don't imply it.

I mean for all the "you can't do diplomacy" there has been a lot (but not enough) diplomacy being done

No sign of this though in Russia or outside from those that ran away.

BBC NEWS | UK | 'Million' march against Iraq war

 

[Yarrgh]

I realise that I am guilty also but you consistently neglect to add "in my opinion".

I don't think that's just opinion though is it?

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I don't think that's just opinion though is it?

Absolutely.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Oligarch renounces Russian citizenship over Ukraine war

Oleg Tinkov, who has previously spoken out against the conflict, says he ‘won’t be associated with a fascist country’

www.theguardian.com

 

[PhilM]

I just don't really like when this turns into a both sides thing. Ukraine is under no obligation to come to the table and agree to give up their territory and they aren't asking for war, or trying to extend the war or anything like that by not doing so.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Ukraine aren't the aggressors. Ukraine is the country having their non-military infrastructure getting slammed by PGMs.

It's the Ukrainian people who are suffering most here; while the Russian population are suffering too, ultimately their overall support for Putin has facilitated it.

But, the world isn't that clear-cut. Rightly or wrongly, the Ukrainians will need to, at some point, come to the table and make some compromises for peace.

Right now however isn't the time though for serious compromises, as the situation as it will not benefit Ukraine in the long-term, nor will it bring about stability.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Ukraine aren't the aggressors. Ukraine is the country having their non-military infrastructure getting slammed by PGMs.

It's the Ukrainian people who are suffering most here; while the Russian population are suffering too, ultimately their overall support for Putin has facilitated it.

But, the world isn't that clear-cut. Rightly or wrongly, the Ukrainians will need to, at some point, come to the table and make some compromises for peace.

Right now however isn't the time though for serious compromises, as the situation as it will not benefit Ukraine in the long-term, nor will it bring about stability.

Or they could win.

I don't really like the idea of making compromises in a genocidal war of aggression but it really can't be on the table so long as Ukraine are still anywhere close to the front foot in the actual fight.

And tbh I'm not sure what compromises there are to be made down the road that actually are good long term for anyone but Russia.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I hope these conversations are making it onto primetime US TV.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Oligarch renounces Russian citizenship over Ukraine war

Oleg Tinkov, who has previously spoken out against the conflict, says he ‘won’t be associated with a fascist country’

www.theguardian.com

A noble stance.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Again, I wholeheartedly agree. Ukraine aren't the aggressors. Ukraine is the country having their non-military infrastructure getting slammed by PGMs.

It's the Ukrainian people who are suffering most here; while the Russian population are suffering too, ultimately their overall support for Putin has facilitated it.

But, the world isn't that clear-cut. Rightly or wrongly, the Ukrainians will need to, at some point, come to the table and make some compromises for peace.

Right now however isn't the time though for serious compromises, as the situation as it will not benefit Ukraine in the long-term, nor will it bring about stability.

I am not sure that I agree. Putin and Xi have sown the seeds of right wing authoritariansm globally and if there is not an unwaivering push back then the world is going to be in a very bad place, IMO.

Look at the state of the BRIC clubs leaders. Hopefully the west can better engage Brazil from here on in and maybe Sunak can pull India away from Putin.