Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[Papa Shango]

....it’s a difficult one, do we change street names associated with the slave trade?

Personally I wouldn't go that far as the street names generally are just street names these days. It's not out of the question I suppose as there have been many instances of names being changed from stuff that would not be acceptable now. Penny Lane for example is not associated with the person it was named after any more, it's associated with other things.

Statues are easily replaceable if need be, they kind of do glorify the person depicted.

The plaques on street signs is not a bad shout to be fair.

 

[Zezti]

I'm fully behind BLM and racial equality but I do think its wrong to turn our eyes to the past when we need to be looking forward.
Toppling statues may feel significant progress for an angry mob, but what does it actually achieve for black people today? There needs to be dialogue, communication, cultural and political changes for sure, to work toward ending racial discrimination but I don't think trying to cancel history is the way to begin it.

Every country will have icons of their history who did good things but also things that are unnacceptable today. Remember that slave trading was legal in this country, and many others. Should we burn the country down in repentance because we traded more slaves than any other country while it was legal? That's not going to do anyone any good going forward.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Did Howard Kendall sign any black players? There will be calls for his to come down after finding out despite removing every statue and street name it still has not made a difference to the situation, so the solution must obviously mean even if tenuous links can be made they will also have to come down.

A list of approved figures can then be produced to replace these:

1. Martin Luther King jr.
2. Nelson Mandela

I just find the situation sad that people can't understand that what has gone has gone, I severely doubt any statues were put up due to outstanding achievements to slavery. All of these people made a contribution to the towns and cities that at somepoint decided to recognise. To simply judge 300 years later that they didn't make a contribution is laughable. You of course wouldn't choose to honour them now with anything but to remove what was there is trying to rewrite history. Secondary plaques detailing the person's controversial points should be enough and be a jumping off point to learn about the person and the wrong doings of them and practically the whole country at the time.

If someone said if by removing every sign that these people existed then all racism would cease, I would sign up for that all day. Problem is the opposite is more likely by pursuing this, so where is the value?

 

[Papa Shango]

Did Howard Kendall sign any black players? There will be calls for his to come down after finding out despite removing every statue and street name it still has not made a difference to the situation, so the solution must obviously mean even if tenuous links can be made they will also have to come down.

Allegedly he left second time around because the board would not sanction a move for Dion Dublin.

 

[Barnfred 55]

That would leave huge question marks over anyone who didn't vote Labour IMO. Good idea.

It isn't a witch hunt mate. People are entitled to their views and there are many people who would want to keep a statue or a street name in place as a reminder of slavery and how wrong it was. That doesn't make them a bad person.

I was making that suggestion as a way to deal with a very emotional and important issue in a way that doesn't constitute mob rule.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Allegedly he left second time around because the board would not sanction a move for Dion Dublin.

Just in case for avoidance of any confusion here it was a very much tongue in cheek remark.

I don't think HK is racist in anyway. It was the board...

 

[ste d' indica]

Just looked that up. Says he was decorated by Pedro II the penultimate emperor of Brazil who was instrumental in the abolition of slavery and a great fighter for civil rights. Maybe Mr Bramley Moore just hung out with the good guys then.

That's not exactly confirmation he wasn't talking advantage of slavery.

If he traded in Brazil it meant inevitably slave labour was being exploited.

This is a really interesting piece on the slave trade in Brazil and South America I came across a few years ago and the legacy that remains still:

Where Slaves Ruled

Escaped slaves in Brazil created thousands of hidden societies, or quilombos, in the heart of the country. Today these communities are winning rights to their land—and helping protect it.

www.nationalgeographic.com

For every African who landed in British North America, 12 arrived in Brazil, most of them destined for gold mines and sugar plantations, brutal work that killed a third to a half of them within five years.

 

[ste d' indica]

Slavery was present in almost every society across history. But the residents of Bristol can't do much about its historical legacy in Mesopotamia or Egypt.

I disagree, I live in Bristol and I'm all in on this. I've boycotted listening to the Bangles, or eating Toblerones, Dairy Lea Triangles, those green Green Quality St or any other pyramidal food.... I'm struggling a bit with Mesopotamia to be honest.

 

[ste d' indica]

Slavery was present in almost every society across history. But the residents of Bristol can't do much about its historical legacy in Mesopotamia or Egypt.

Those posh pyramid tea bags can 'koff an' all. Symbols of the oppressor.

 

[Shevin Keedy]

Create a museum for all of it. Learn about the history. Grow

This

Er guys?

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/international-slavery-museum

 

[kenada_blue]

All just seems a bit tedious to me - as John Barnes said how does doing all this improve life for blacks? Did the Colston statue magically turn white folk racist as they walked past it?

Just seems to be some stupid token movement that ultimately achieves sod all.

On slavery itself - its easy to forget that slavery has always been an elites game - the slaves in egypt were poor and owned by the elite, the european slave traders were a minority of elite whites and the black tribe leaders who sold the slaves to the Europeans were you guessed it elite.

Instead of infantile riots and trying to change names of streets maybe people should be educated on the realities of what slavery was throughout the world and how we can help people of all colours who are presently living in poverty/ try to bridge the wealth divide which ultimately is the cause of inequality in the UK.

I know in the USA its different for alot of African Americans who are direct descendants of slavery but I assume a majority of BAME in the UK's origins came from post war Britain from the Empire?

Yup.

Let's remove the Cecil Rhodes statue at Oxford Uni...

Let's not sort out the lack of minority students accepted into Oxford.

It's arse backwards.

Leave the statues.

 

[Aberblue]

For me, it's something that should be considered locally and democratically.

I don't believe in mob rule where a group of people take it upon themselves to inflict their own version of justice. If that was opened to everybody, then nobody's property is safe.

This is a principle that applies across the board, not just to slavery.

Have a democratic vote on it. It doesn't have to be a mini referendum. It can be part of a manifesto leading up to council elections. For instance, if the Labour Party in Liverpool publically stated it's intention to change the name of all the streets and buildings linked to the slave trade, and made this clear via TV and other media outlets, then people know what they are voting for if they vote Labour.

But we can't have people running around the streets just doing whatever they want, however worthy the cause.

That would be fine if the sole issue in the election was whether to change dozens of street names. In reality, the matter woudn't be foremost in anybody's mind when casting their votes at a local election.

 

[Yarrgh]

This was brought up somewhere else, but apparently our fabled hero William Ralph Dean was the victim of racial slurs and one that many still use today - Dixie.

Due to his darker complexion, the name Dixie apparently was used in reference to the Dixie or Confederate States (deep south), which built itself on slavery.

The Mason-Dixon line formed by a person called Dixon, where the term Dixie originally stemmed from, separated the free north and the slave owning south.

The term was disliked by Dean and he preferred to be called William, and understandably so you'd expect. It would be interesting to know if this is in fact true.

It's true. I remember my dad having an audio interview with Dean on tape. He hated the nickname.

 

[Yarrgh]

Yeah I think we've all heard it at one point or another. That was the point of what Prentice was saying I think, 'you may have heard he didn't like it but..'. I think she had birthday cards or something that he'd signed Dixie. Not something you can imagine him doing if he hated it.

I think he accepted it by the end of his career and realised that it was a name used with affection by his fans.

 

[dead_soft]

Yup.

Let's remove the Cecil Rhodes statue at Oxford Uni...

Let's not sort out the lack of minority students accepted into Oxford.

It's arse backwards.

Leave the statues.

I don't understand this. Why do people get so sure that these things are mutually exclusive? I'm fairly sure those campaigning to remove the statues have done more than most for pushing other avenues of change.