Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Bruce Wayne]

Why because I am a Brexitier and you are a remainer ? No thanks I will just stay off them if you want, but as a forum supporter - that post is rather distasteful when others get away with far worse imo....

Calm down Joe. You'd said you were staying off the EU thread because you didn't enjoy them, preferring the relaxed confines of the old photos thread instead. I was just asking if you wanted some help with this thread as well. Your mental wellbeing is important to me Joe.

 

[tsubaki]

So the Independent newspaper tells lies?please read my post on that articler before calling me a liar - as I stated you are blind and what suits your beliefs......
In corbynism....

Joey that article said:

The first thing to say is that EU membership, clearly, does not prevent you having a state-owned national railway company. This is because the UK is the only major member state where one of these doesn't operate the vast majority of services.

From France to Portugal, Spain to Germany, Italy to Poland, passenger rail is overwhelmingly run by the country's respective version of British Rail. Unlike in the UK, these were never privatised and broken up.

The suggestion that EU state aid rules would prevent you from subsidising these companies is also wrong: Article 93 of the EU's treaty specifically exempts "the coordination of transport" from state aid regulations.

EU member states make great use of this exemption: ticket prices can be absurdly low, especially for commuters. In Belgium, where I live, train tickets are practically given away for free: a weekend six-hour round trip between Brussels and Arlon can be bought on the day for £19 return. For those over 65, there's a flat charge of £6 for a return ticket anywhere in the country.

Other EU countries are going further: Luxembourg subsidises its railways so much that it has decided there is no point in even bothering to collect fares anymore, and from the beginning of 2020 it's just going to make all of its public transport free, for everyone.

So EU rules do not prevent you having a public railway company, or from subsidising it to whatever absurd degree you fancy. But it's important to be clear what restrictions the EU does place on member states' railways: or to be precise, what restrictions it will place on them.

This is because the situation in the EU is changing: in 2016 the bloc approved a package of legislation called the Fourth Rail Package, which will come into force from 2023. This includes a series of new rules whose intention is to bring the private sector and market competition into the railways. Looking at the situation in member states now might not be a very good guide to what they will look like in a few years' time.

.... and you summed this up as "yes they do existing ones ... not renationalisation....." which is demonstrably wrong.

Secondly, and more importantly, I did not call you a liar. What I said was that anyone who tells you that we couldn't renationalize the railways under the EU is lying, because they are - that Independent article of yours proved that.

 

[catcherintherye]

5 millions not that minute in northern marginal seats.....

No I agree Joe. I am not anti-Brexit, but we have to be honest and say it's a minority of Labour voters isn't it. Ironically enough Corbyn is quite pro Brexit (partly for this reason).

 

[tsubaki]

Then Parliament should have voted for a different question to be put to the electorate. Politicians chose the question, the voters merely responded. Then the same Politicians tried to muddy the water with Hard, Soft and whatever else Brexit. They set it, we voted it, get on with it....Tory and Labour....

Pete that is true, but it destroys this argument that we must have WTO Brexit / be able to do our own trade deals / no freedom of movement utterly.

The country voted to leave; any deal which gives that meets that criteria - so it should be one that can pass Parliament (which means single market access, or very close to it).

 

[catcherintherye]

So that the first part of my question, what about the nationalisation of businesses that the Eu will not allow....

Well this is the irony of most of the EU debate really isn't it? On all sides? You have Tories like Hannan carrying on as if the EU were not a vehicle for privatisation etc etc. The reality is, Corbyn's manifesto as things stand cannot be implemented within the current EU rules.

For me (and while I don;t agree with Mason on lots of things he's stumbled upon a certain formula in this regard. Essentially if Labour won it would need to go into conflict with the EU pretty early on, very openly declare it will abandon the ideals of the Lisbon Treaty and break some obscure EU rules on Nationalisation which are generally quite populist/popular. As a tactical play this would be a smart move.

There isn't really a bad outcome to this. Either the EU would punish the UK and the "left" can begin to shape the discourse amongst a lot of older brexiteers who are intrinsically against the EU. The EU caves in, at which point you can then push further against it on more things and give some breath into the flailing social democratic movement across Europe.

It would present real headaches for the right as well. They would be stuck between supporting the EU, or supporting a populist, left leaning government.

 

[roydo]

Pete that is true, but it destroys this argument that we must have WTO Brexit / be able to do our own trade deals / no freedom of movement utterly.

The country voted to leave; any deal which gives that meets that criteria - so it should be one that can pass Parliament (which means single market access, or very close to it).

Quite. Like someone said a few weeks after the vote, no one asked How?

 

[catcherintherye]

There are various ways he could indirectly prop up a Tory Government without going near a coalition...

No of course there are. Of that there is no doubt. However the moment he formally goes into agreement with the Conservatives Party he loses whole swathes of support. Much of his support North of Watford desert him (and possibly go to Labour). In the South the support may hold but in leafier parts the Conservatives will lose support to the Lib Dems.

Farage is a major problem for Labour, he's the biggest problem for the left in Britain currently and is arguably the most adept British politician, but the idea that you can add the BXP vote to the Conservative vote through a pact will not be born out by reality. It's also a pact where only the Conservatives can benefit.

I sense Farage is his own man, with his own ambitions. He stands at the cusp of replacing the Conservative party as the party of the right. However he needs to breakthrough quickly, and I sense he needs a quick election to do this. By 2022 I suspect much like UKIP before him his race will be run. Bret will be 3 years in the past and potentially some anger may be being directed towards him unless it's worked out very well.

 

[roydo]

The reality is, Corbyn's manifesto as things stand cannot be implemented within the current EU rules.

Think you might want to check that mate.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

If Labour continue to sit on the fence then I'm afraid the Lib Dems are the main party of opposition.

On Brexit maybe, but as shown in the last election there is more to life than just Brexit...

 

[catcherintherye]

Quite. Like someone said a few weeks after the vote, no one asked How?

The obvious difficulty is the question was left very open. I don't think any side has the right to hegemony over what the leave vote meant. Nigel Farage spent all campaign telling us a leave vote would keep us in the single market and we'd be like Norway. So I can hardly see how that was a vote for no deal.

At a practical level though, the side that makes the most compelling case tends to win. The Conservatives have made an awful job of selling a deal. From a sales perspective, it would be an example of almost everything you wouldn't do as someone trying to sell something. In that vacuum more extreme solutions emerge. In honesty whether we end up with no deal or no Brexit, the fault lines lay squarely with the Conservative Party and it's inability to negotiate with even a modicum of professionalism.

 

[catcherintherye]

If Labour continue to sit on the fence then I'm afraid the Lib Dems are the main party of opposition.

They are not though are they mate.

 

[catcherintherye]

Think you might want to check that mate.

Pete is right, you can't just go lashing nationalisations under EU law. How far it would be enforced or interpreted is open to question. (I also think the surplus they were proposing was outside of the limits).

 

[roydo]

Pete is right, you can't just go lashing nationalisations under EU law. How far it would be enforced or interpreted is open to question. (I also think the surplus they were proposing was outside of the limits).

I thought you were talking about the railways. Transport stuff is excluded from the state lobbing cash at it.

 

[catcherintherye]

I thought you were talking about the railways. Transport stuff is excluded from the state lobbing cash at it.

Just more broadly. He may get around it though. It would be a brave move from the EU to step in and kick the UK for breaching such rules.

 

[Walken]

No of course there are. Of that there is no doubt. However the moment he formally goes into agreement with the Conservatives Party he loses whole swathes of support. Much of his support North of Watford desert him (and possibly go to Labour). In the South the support may hold but in leafier parts the Conservatives will lose support to the Lib Dems.

Farage is a major problem for Labour, he's the biggest problem for the left in Britain currently and is arguably the most adept British politician, but the idea that you can add the BXP vote to the Conservative vote through a pact will not be born out by reality. It's also a pact where only the Conservatives can benefit.

I sense Farage is his own man, with his own ambitions. He stands at the cusp of replacing the Conservative party as the party of the right. However he needs to breakthrough quickly, and I sense he needs a quick election to do this. By 2022 I suspect much like UKIP before him his race will be run. Bret will be 3 years in the past and potentially some anger may be being directed towards him unless it's worked out very well.

He may well be an adept populist, but he has in no way proven himself to be an adept politician