Current Affairs The 'incel movement'

[Jimishorts]

More importantly, the internet has provided the opportunity for others to monetise the opinions and feelings of those people, by feeding them YouTube vids to validate their views, and sit back and let the advertising revenue flow in, which provides a reinforcement mechanism to fringe views.

Freaks that are wired wrong. If every female finds you mentally and physically repulsive then somehow it's their fault and not the fact you live in yer ma's basement, have a neck beard and smell like cheese puffs.

Sounds like the ginger one off of toffee tv.

 

[ChesterBlue]

This depends on the feminist in question, which is my point. It's a spectrum. The most extreme of them are just as radicalized as the incels. They won't tell you that, but they'll act on it.

I'm not justifying extreme views here. I'm pointing them out, and also pointing out that human beings tend to be poor at discriminating between the most radicalized elements of a group and the rest. That one happens because of our natural fears of the most radicalized elements.

I’m sorry mate but this is a complete false equivalency you are trying to perpetuate. There is a wider issue here where there are feminists that go too far undoubtably, but the world is a significantly less safe place for women than it is for men. Incels actively applaud sexual violence and murder and men’s behaviour towards women pushes women towards stronger types of feminism, this is a fact.

Virtually every woman has a story regarding men’s behaviour towards them, yet virtually no lads know anyone who would do that sort of thing. There’s a massive disconnect there.

 

[Martin Alvito]

More importantly, the internet has provided the opportunity for others to monetise the opinions and feelings of those people, by feeding them YouTube vids to validate their views, and sit back and let the advertising revenue flow in, which provides a reinforcement mechanism to fringe views.

This is a really good point. At least in the United States, this one dates back to the end of the 'equal time' doctrine of the FCC and the resulting rise of conservative talk radio. Reinforcing extreme views makes content providers money, and we live in a capitalist world, so some media companies and some content providers make money by giving those people what they want.

I’m sorry mate but this is a complete false equivalency you are trying to perpetuate. There is a wider issue here where there are feminists that go too far undoubtably, but the world is a significantly less safe place for women than it is for men. Incels actively applaud sexual violence and murder and men’s behaviour towards women pushes women towards stronger types of feminism, this is a fact.

Virtually every woman has a story regarding men’s behaviour towards them, yet virtually no lads know anyone who would do that sort of thing. There’s a massive disconnect there.

This is not a false equivalency, and I can prove it. You may be correct that the extreme behavior that men perpetuate against women against men occurs with greater frequency and severity. You also may not be correct.

You don't hear men's stories because they won't talk about them. This is because our society obscures those stories, and deters men from telling them while encouraging women to tell theirs.

I cannot even begin to tell you how angry I am with you right now. It's bad enough when I hear this from women. It's much worse when I hear it from a man. This is why men do not tell their stories, even to other men. That's because of people like you.

 

[RAFUH]

The equivalent female term for what you describe is 'feminist'. I know this because I was married to one for twenty years, and was treated accordingly.

It is a mental health issue on both sides. The stigma on mental health issues results from the violence on the extremes for both genders. Most people with mental health issues aren't like that, as you point out, but they get lumped in with the dangerous apples in the bin because that's just how the pattern recognition that's part of the human condition works.

Have you just equated feminists to incels?

 

[PaddyJames]

INvoluntary CELibate. All the girls fault, apparently.

"Girls won't have sex with me. So I blame them and say I'm involuntarily celibate. I've not wondered if there's a relationship between the former and the latter though".

To be fair if a girl doesn't want to have sex with me it is her fault. If I bump into 2002 Martine McCutcheon in town and invite her back to mine for some good lovin' and she turns me down, how is that my fault?

 

[ChesterBlue]

This is a really good point. At least in the United States, this one dates back to the end of the 'equal time' doctrine of the FCC and the resulting rise of conservative talk radio. Reinforcing extreme views makes content providers money, and we live in a capitalist world, so some media companies and some content providers make money by giving those people what they want.



This is not a false equivalency, and I can prove it. You may be correct that the extreme behavior that men perpetuate against women against men occurs with greater frequency and severity. You also may not be correct.

You don't hear men's stories because they won't talk about them. This is because our society obscures those stories, and deters men from telling them while encouraging women to tell theirs.

I cannot even begin to tell you how angry I am with you right now. It's bad enough when I hear this from women. It's much worse when I hear it from a man. This is why men do not tell their stories, even to other men. That's because of people like you.

Be angry with me when wilfully ignoring and twisting what I actually say if you want to, I’m not responsible for you attempting to imagine I have said things I have not. Any form of sexual or domestic violence or abuse is wrong and more men do need to speak out about it.

That does not mean you are not making a false equivalency between incels and feminists, because you are. Incel ideologies have been directly responsible for a massive amount of Lone Wolf attacks worldwide, and it is a dangerous trend which is growing. Again. I am not aware of any attacks where a woman has gunned down a bunch of people in cold blood because men won’t sleep with them.

Sticking up for incels is quite literally sticking up for Nazis. Frankly you may as well be sticking up for Isis as it is the same thing. Same forms of radicalisation, same recruitment methods, and evidently similar results. Extreme feminists are not good or pleasant people, and neither is it a pleasant ideology, but it is not the same as being involved in what is to all intents and purposes a terror group founded on feelings of entitlement to female’s bodies and the wish to inflict harm via sexual violence and murder to innocent women and men, just because they are sexually active.

Ps. I would personally identify as a feminist in that I feel the world should be a safer place for women, where people like my little sister do not have to worry when walking down the street, or taking public transport. I do not agree with the misandristic elements of it, but I do want a safer and more equal world for all.

 

[brieverton]

They’re radicalised mate. They wear the term as a badge of pride in the same way a terrorist has a pride in their organisation.

People who just have trouble with the other sex are not incels. Men who believe they are entitled to sex from women and that every woman is whore who only wants to sleep with unbelievably attractive men (or Chads as they call them, assumably due to the name of a character in the anime Bleach) are incels

They are properly extremist and radicalised mate, there may be some good in some of them dependant on your view, but in my view someone that espouses their rhetoric is no better than a terrorist, and given the fact they are calling for more lone Wolf attacks, and the amount of incels that have done these kind of attacks worldwide I would suggest we should be treating them as terrorists.

You seem to be suggesting that you can only be termed incel if you are radicalised?

Society won't and can't make that distinction though. As they did not in previous generations with LGBTQ people for example. The perception was negative by association.

I wouldn't say that involuntary celibacy is all that uncommon, and it may be something that people experience in phases. So the issue is tarring a lot of people, who might be lonely and miserable as it is, but never at any time radicalised and dangerous.

Granted, this subculture exists but I would suggest the media and society has just tagged a convenient label on it - incel, because everything has to carry a label to accompany the two-second attention span world that social media is now perpetuating.

I saw one tweet on this last week, suggesting that if incel men can't get laid, they certainly aren't capable for the most part in organising a movement, or subculture. Whilst that's a bit outlandish, I understood the sentiment.

If people are radicalised, then that's dangerous and it needs to be addressed through more stringent gun control etc. Anything else just makes the poor sod next door, or down the road, who might be a family member, feel more miserable and embarrassed and ashamed, and less likely to seek what help may be on offer, for fear of being labelled a woman-hating terrorist Nazi that everyone should be afraid of.

The Nazis themselves by policy, had an automatic suspicion of single and/or unmarried men, particularly past the age of 30, that they were homosexual. They were reported on by their neighbours and work colleagues. For some it meant, a knock on the door and transportation to one of the camps. I learned this on a tour of Dachau.

 

[ChesterBlue]

You seem to be suggesting that you can only be termed incel if you are radicalised?

Society won't and can't make that distinction though. As they did not in previous generations with LGBTQ people for example. The perception was negative by association.

I wouldn't say that involuntary celibacy is all that uncommon, and it may be something that people experience in phases. So the issue is tarring a lot of people, who might be lonely and miserable as it is, but never at any time radicalised and dangerous.

Granted, this subculture exists but I would suggest the media and society has just tagged a convenient label on it - incel, because everything has to carry a label to accompany the two-second attention span world that social media is now perpetuating.

I saw one tweet on this last week, suggesting that if incel men can't get laid, they certainly aren't capable for the most part in organising a movement, or subculture. Whilst that's a bit outlandish, I understood the sentiment.

If people are radicalised, then that's dangerous and it needs to be addressed through more stringent gun control etc. Anything else just makes the poor sod next door, or down the road, who might be a family member, feel more miserable and embarrassed and ashamed, and less likely to seek what help may be of offer, for fear of being labelled a woman-hating terrorist Nazi that everyone should be afraid of.

The Nazis themselves by policy, had an automatic suspicion of single and/or unmarried men, particularly past the age of 30, that they were homosexual. They were reported on by their neighbours and work colleagues. For some it meant, a knock on the door and transportation to one of the camps. I learned this on a tour of Dachau.

They label themselves incels, society does not label them as such unless they espouse incel opinions.

This is not the same as having a dry spell, or a string of dates that don’t go well, or being a bit upset about a break up. This isn’t a new problem or concept, and it’s a issue which has been getting brushed under the carpet along with the extreme right for too long.

Perhaps the media are using the term incorrectly, I’ve been avoiding the coverage as this ideology hits a bit close to home for me due to behaviours and incidents my own sister has had to endure, and the fact she felt she couldn’t tell me or my dad about it because she didn’t want to see either of us in jail.

Incels blame women for the fact they are celibate because they believe they should be entitled for every woman they are attracted to, to open their legs for them on demand which I’m sure we agree is a completely twisted and unacceptable world view.

There have now been numerous violent incidents where this ideology has been heavily ingrained into the perpetrator, and I do not feel any sympathy for the people who adopt this world view, nor do I think they should be able to use mental health as a scapegoat for it. I have borderline personality disorder myself, and that does not stop me taking responsibility for my own actions as they are my actions and my choices. If I can have a break up, or a dry spell, or live through adversity without blaming the world, and everyone else anyone can.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

To be fair if a girl doesn't want to have sex with me it is her fault. If I bump into 2002 Martine McCutcheon in town and invite her back to mine for some good lovin' and she turns me down, how is that my fault?

Put yer wang away and go easy on the joop. I can smell you from here. Defo your fault.

 

[PaddyJames]

No chance, shes a fridge

Put yer wang away and go easy on the joop. I can smell you from here. Defo your fault.

No chance she's a fridge and I hate her

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Have you just equated feminists to incels?

Glad someone spotted that. Didn’t particularly want to engage in a mind numbing, multi paragraph, pseudo intellectual condescending conversation though.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Have you just equated feminists to incels?

The worst of them. Most of them are not like that. As I said, it's a spectrum. The worst of them are exactly like that, though they won't admit it verbally. I know this from personal experience. Part of the problem with the label 'feminist' is that the real-world legal consequences of the movement give the worst of them the cover they need to behave in that fashion. I would suggest that, if you are a feminist and you don't want to be viewed as being like those people, then those of you that are the real feminists need to admit what you're giving safe harbor to, expose them and kick them out. You're going to need to tolerate a legal system that is fair, and that actually prosecutes women for violent behavior perpetrated against men.

Otherwise, someone like me is going to see someone like you as complicit in violence by women against men.

Be angry with me when wilfully ignoring and twisting what I actually say if you want to, I’m not responsible for you attempting to imagine I have said things I have not. Any form of sexual or domestic violence or abuse is wrong and more men do need to speak out about it.

That does not mean you are not making a false equivalency between incels and feminists, because you are. Incel ideologies have been directly responsible for a massive amount of Lone Wolf attacks worldwide, and it is a dangerous trend which is growing. Again. I am not aware of any attacks where a woman has gunned down a bunch of people in cold blood because men won’t sleep with them.

Sticking up for incels is quite literally sticking up for Nazis. Frankly you may as well be sticking up for Isis as it is the same thing. Same forms of radicalisation, same recruitment methods, and evidently similar results. Extreme feminists are not good or pleasant people, and neither is it a pleasant ideology, but it is not the same as being involved in what is to all intents and purposes a terror group founded on feelings of entitlement to female’s bodies and the wish to inflict harm via sexual violence and murder to innocent women and men, just because they are sexually active.

Ps. I would personally identify as a feminist in that I feel the world should be a safer place for women, where people like my little sister do not have to worry when walking down the street, or taking public transport. I do not agree with the misandristic elements of it, but I do want a safer and more equal world for all.

I'm not willfully twisting what you are saying. I am speaking from my own personal experiences. You are twisting my words, to try to claim that I am sticking up for incels. What I am saying is that both sides perpetuate physical violence against one another. It happens. It's out there. I have been a literal victim more than once. I can prove this.

I have been through the legal system with respect to this issue. I only received further injustice, despite doing nothing but sit there and take it.

I am not sticking up with for incels. I am beyond furious with you for interpreting what I have to say as sticking up for incels. What they propagate is quite obviously wrong, just as what the worst of those that call themselves 'feminists' propagate is quite obviously wrong.

What I am telling you is that incels are angry for a reason. Women may not literally be getting away with murder (or they might, I don't know either way), but some of them get away with a lot both physically and emotionally precisely because of the positions feminism stakes out with respect to this issue, and their widespread adoption.

If we're going to make progress on this one, as you would like to see, there has to be recognition on both sides. My sister was literally raped, and did not receive justice. Instead, she had her identity exposed by the chief of police of the county on television. I'm angry about that one too, though not as furious as she was. That was a horrible injustice that she in no way deserved. There was literally nothing we could do about it. We talked to attorneys.

The last thing that I will tell you is that those horrible experiences made my sister and I better people. They made us strong enough to fight against these things, to take what you're trying to do without responding with violence, and to stand up to you rather than sit down when you try to twist my words to suit your purposes and beliefs.

I will never identify as a feminist. I will agree with you that what we need is a safer and more equal world for all. I think that an absolutely necessary condition of reaching that result is the recognition on both sides of the fence that we both have traitors we need to expose and kick out.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Glad someone spotted that. Didn’t particularly want to engage in a mind numbing, multi paragraph, pseudo intellectual condescending conversation though.

This is exactly what I am talking about. You don't like what I have to say, because it doesn't fit with your beliefs, so you instead engage in condescending ad hominem attacks rather than engage me in an actual intellectual discussion.

To be direct about it, this is what women had to put up with in the past when trying to discuss these issues.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

This is exactly what I am talking about. You don't like what I have to say, because it doesn't fit with your beliefs, so you instead engage in condescending ad hominem attacks rather than engage me in an actual intellectual discussion.

To be direct about it, this is what women had to put up with in the past when trying to discuss these issues.

I’m not getting dragged in to another debate of men telling women how they should feel and behave so this is all I’ll say on the subject.
You equated feminism (a movement that has historically sought to highlight and overthrow a patriarchal and unjust society) to incels (a movement that largely appears to hate themselves and women and pretty much everything else)
You’ve had a bit of a mare here, that largely seems to stem from an unhealthy hatred of your ex.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

The worst of them. Most of them are not like that. As I said, it's a spectrum. The worst of them are exactly like that, though they won't admit it verbally. I know this from personal experience. Part of the problem with the label 'feminist' is that the real-world legal consequences of the movement give the worst of them the cover they need to behave in that fashion. I would suggest that, if you are a feminist and you don't want to be viewed as being like those people, then those of you that are the real feminists need to admit what you're giving safe harbor to, expose them and kick them out. You're going to need to tolerate a legal system that is fair, and that actually prosecutes women for violent behavior perpetrated against men.

Otherwise, someone like me is going to see someone like you as complicit in violence by women against men.



I'm not willfully twisting what you are saying. I am speaking from my own personal experiences. You are twisting my words, to try to claim that I am sticking up for incels. What I am saying is that both sides perpetuate physical violence against one another. It happens. It's out there. I have been a literal victim more than once. I can prove this.

I have been through the legal system with respect to this issue. I only received further injustice, despite doing nothing but sit there and take it.

I am not sticking up with for incels. I am beyond furious with you for interpreting what I have to say as sticking up for incels. What they propagate is quite obviously wrong, just as what the worst of those that call themselves 'feminists' propagate is quite obviously wrong.

What I am telling you is that incels are angry for a reason. Women may not literally be getting away with murder (or they might, I don't know either way), but some of them get away with a lot both physically and emotionally precisely because of the positions feminism stakes out with respect to this issue, and their widespread adoption.

If we're going to make progress on this one, as you would like to see, there has to be recognition on both sides. My sister was literally raped, and did not receive justice. Instead, she had her identity exposed by the chief of police of the county on television. I'm angry about that one too, though not as furious as she was. That was a horrible injustice that she in no way deserved. There was literally nothing we could do about it. We talked to attorneys.

The last thing that I will tell you is that those horrible experiences made my sister and I better people. They made us strong enough to fight against these things, to take what you're trying to do without responding with violence, and to stand up to you rather than sit down when you try to twist my words to suit your purposes and beliefs.

I will never identify as a feminist. I will agree with you that what we need is a safer and more equal world for all. I think that an absolutely necessary condition of reaching that result is the recognition on both sides of the fence that we both have traitors we need to expose and kick out.

Ohhhh Martin. Feminist thought has a long, complex and multifaceted history. Radical Feminists did indeed seek to live a life free of men. However most want equality and opportunity.

For a guy who likes to try and avoid priors and employ critical thinking, that's quite loaded stuff.