Current Affairs The 'incel movement'

[Tubey]

This is exactly what I am talking about. You don't like what I have to say, because it doesn't fit with your beliefs, so you instead engage in condescending ad hominem attacks rather than engage me in an actual intellectual discussion.

To be direct about it, this is what women had to put up with in the past when trying to discuss these issues.

People can't engage in what you've just said in terms of an intellectual discussion, because what you've just said wasn't intellectual. It was flat out wrong.

You can't equate incels with feminism as two ends of a spectrum. They're not on the same spectrum. Yes, you'll get nutcase feminists - misandrists - but the principle of feminism in of itself isn't intrinsically hateful.

So no, sometimes, when you say something that's just stupid, people will respond to what you said accordingly.

 

[Dymak]

I checked out an incel forum once, it was after the incident in Canada, and the level of doom and gloom emanating from the forum was palpable, it was worse than on here after a derby defeat.

I do remember reading a thread where they were mocking the media’s portrayal of them being ‘right wing Nazis’. The people posting in that particular thread were of the opinion that their misery caused through involuntary celibacy had nothing to do with politics, with many stating they were liberal and had no intention of committing massacres.

For those that do commit rage filled massacres, their rage must surely be greater than their lust. When you think about it, they don’t use deadly weapons to meet their lustful desires like a rapist would, instead they take vengeance on society and then kill themselves in a way which means they die as a virgin. I think this is the difference between murderous incels and the sadistic rapists that have been around for thousands of years.

I think the incidence of this type of crime thankfully remains quite low, but if you look into the infamous cases then the word autism will come up, but given the small sample size I think linking the two is as spurious as linking it to politics.

The media love this, and they probably love it because they know it will sell, the true crime genre is huge. There will soon be feature films and Netflix documentaries on the subject. They will no doubt stoke the fires and exacerbate things, and I can see people trying to make it a political issue.

 

[Tubey]

Getting hit. More than once, on more than one occasion. The woman in question hates men and believes that they are to be subjugated. I backed that one out from her statements, her actions and her own trauma.

That isn't feminism. That's misandry.

 

[verreauxi]

I note that certain sections of the UK press are pushing a narrative, post Plymouth shooting, that there is a dangerous 'incel movement'.

Now, personally I find the whole concept of angry internet numpts basically saying "I can't get laid and I can't figure out why" really amusing. However, what's the wider GOT view. Is it a genuine threat? Is a new wave of violent misogyny about to sweep Britain (and elsewhere)? Should we jst round them up into a camp and make them wear t-shirts emblazoned with 'virgin'?

A good read that lays out the parallels with other extremist groups.

Assessing the Threat of Incel Violence: Studies in Conflict & Terrorism: Vol 43, No 7

 

[Tubey]

Wait....before I further ?

@Tubey is Martin your multi???

I wish I'd thought of it, really do. lol

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

A good read that lays out the parallels with other extremist groups.

Assessing the Threat of Incel Violence: Studies in Conflict & Terrorism: Vol 43, No 7

Unfortunately I don't have access

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Cwoar, it has all gone a bit quasi-academic in here hasn't it? Sociology undergrads, feminist theory, empirical evidence, epistemology, links to actual academic papers.

But much for a collection of footie fans innit?

 

[RAFUH]

Cwoar, it has all gone a bit quasi-academic in here hasn't it? Sociology undergrads, feminist theory, empirical evidence, epistemology, links to actual academic papers.

But much for a collection of footie fans innit?

This is Current Affairs, darling.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

This is Current Affairs, darling.

Polite request to move thread to the alehouse?

 

[Prevenger17]

it has all gone a bit quasi-academic in here hasn't it? Sociology undergrads, feminist theory, empirical evidence, epistemology, links to actual academic papers.

And yet it's the guy who said incels are single because they smell like cheese puffs who has cut closest to the truth of the matter

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

And yet it's the guy who said incels are single because they smell like cheese puffs who has cut closest to the truth of the matter

Cheese puffs or wotsits?

 

[Death]

This is a really good point. At least in the United States, this one dates back to the end of the 'equal time' doctrine of the FCC and the resulting rise of conservative talk radio. Reinforcing extreme views makes content providers money, and we live in a capitalist world, so some media companies and some content providers make money by giving those people what they want.



This is not a false equivalency, and I can prove it. You may be correct that the extreme behavior that men perpetuate against women against men occurs with greater frequency and severity. You also may not be correct.

You don't hear men's stories because they won't talk about them. This is because our society obscures those stories, and deters men from telling them while encouraging women to tell theirs.

I cannot even begin to tell you how angry I am with you right now. It's bad enough when I hear this from women. It's much worse when I hear it from a man. This is why men do not tell their stories, even to other men. That's because of people like you.

Finally someone with the balls to say it.

 

[Deckard2049]

What’s interesting is Japan has been dealing with an “incel” phenomenon for a while in their society:

Herbivore men - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There’s just something about western culture which escalates these things. There is some interesting discussion to be had about men checking out of society and what this can mean for things like the economy, marriage rates, birth rates etc but the incel discussion is just too self pitying and hate filled as an ideology for it to be given any nuance.

 

[PaddyJames]

This thread is delivering.

 

[Martin Alvito]

FFS.

Then find another word since "most of them are not like that"

All incels are "like that" as that is what being an incel means.


An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate"[1]) is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people.[16] The American nonprofit Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) described the subculture as "part of the online male supremacist ecosystem" that is included in their list of hate groups

You've equated feminists with an actual hate group that is considered a terrorism threat!

You seem to be continuing to miss the point, which I suspect is because I triggered you.

I don't get to name the dangerous ones. You, the real feminists, do. Identify them, name them, shame them, and accept that you're going to need to change some attitudes and the legal system to actually weed them out. Help us solve the problems on our side of the fence, and you'll get the support of people like me for your issues. You're going to need people like me, because you're going to need our help solving the problem of the incels.

We're going to have to work together to solve things like sexual violence against women. Uber being let off with a nine million dollar fine by the state of California for covering up sexual assaults by its drivers for two years really ticks me off. I ran the math on that one, and concluded that if that externality alone were internalized to the company the entire company would have collapsed.

That said, as long as you're helping create a world where I can get hit repeatedly by a woman and get flat-out injustice from the legal system in response, I can't help you out on a lot of things. The way I see it, the movement created that problem and you're just going to make things worse for me along other dimensions of injustice, unless you can admit that you've created some injustices and work with my side to find solutions to those problems.

To be fair, the results the feminist movement has produced have not been all bad, from my side of the fence. Custody arrangements for men are much better than they used to be fifty years ago. That counts for a lot. There were a lot of serious injustices perpetrated over the years with respect to that one. I'm all for equal treatment, and catching and locking up the sex offenders no matter who they perpetrate those crimes against.

Those of you that are old enough should recall that Michael Crichton got the same sort of response I've gotten in this thread when he published Disclosure. A lot of people tried to shout down a fairly convincing argument that a sexual harassment case could, under the right circumstances, actually be an abuse of power by a female. He was accused of trivializing the issue of sexual harassment, which was not what he was doing. He was pointing out that it's possible to go too far in any situation where guilt is presumed over innocence.

I just want us both to get to actual equal treatment, which isn't happening in part because stories like mine go unheard. The media doesn't publish them, and we don't generally tell them to you because we get this kind of response.

That isn't feminism. That's misandry.

And yet you all permit her to go around calling herself a feminist, and participate in the movement. To be direct, our society has created a legal system that covers up this sort of misandry, and a social system that shames me for admitting these truths. What I am describing happens more often than you think.

This is the problem that I am pointing out. Again, I'm not equating RAFUH with the individual in question, or saying that all or even most feminists are misandrists. However, it should be obvious that some are. I'm saying that the people flying the flag of feminism include those people among the activists, and that this behavior is tolerated and even covered up by our legal system. This colors the perception of the feminist movement on my side of the fence. If feminists don't want to be tarred with that brush, and I've heard that take a lot from men over the years in various forms, then feminists need to admit the need to identify and excommunicate those people.

There isn't any corresponding men's movement that has any intellectual popularity at the moment. Those of us that advocate for those issues, because we've been through these things, are fortunate enough to have the label 'incel' to discriminate between us, and those people.

The problem is that the incels are the backlash against the feminist movement. As any terrorist group or study of them can tell you, men are easier to radicalize.

Finally someone with the balls to say it.

We don't agree on much, but we can agree on this. Personally, I think that's a fairly strong signal that there's something to this one.