Current Affairs The General Election

Voting Intentions

  • Labour

    Votes: 209 61.1%
  • Tories

    Votes: 30 8.8%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 20 5.8%
  • Brexit Gubbins

    Votes: 8 2.3%
  • Greens

    Votes: 8 2.3%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Change UK, if that's their current moniker

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 4 1.2%
  • DUP

    Votes: 3 0.9%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 2.6%
  • Alliance

    Votes: 4 1.2%
  • SDLP

    Votes: 2 0.6%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 4 1.2%
  • Some fringe party with a catchy name

    Votes: 7 2.0%
  • A plague on all your houses

    Votes: 32 9.4%

  • Total voters
    342
  • Poll closed .
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People who are working. They don't see themselves as 'poor'. They are concerned with their jobs, they have aspiration, they want a safety net for the vulnerable but they don't want everything gifted to them at the expense of themselves. They want political and economical evolution, not revolution.

As for whether it started before Corbyn, an argument could certainly be made for that, but he's undoubtedly exacerbated it an awful lot.

I'm not saying the Tories are suddenly the party of the working class - of course they aren't. I'm saying the working class are now in a political wilderness, represented by no one, having to make the choice between right wing elitists and left wing ideologists. The problem Labour have is, given that choice, more and more will go with Johnson over Corbyn if they had a gun to their head as he represents the lesser risk to their lives and aspirations.

Corbyn/Momentum people have to ask themselves a hard question and look honestly for the answers - why are you losing? Why are you still the underdog after a decade of Tory austerity and incompetence? The answer isn't "the media" - it just isn't. Loads of people I know don't even know what a Kuenssberg is and care even less about what she tweets - it's what Corbyn and Momentum say and do that is so offputting.

Thanks for an insightful response.

I think the question is really layered. I spoke to my barber a couple of weeks back, who runs a couple of stores. He didn't have a positive word to say about the Conservatives and particularly Boris Johnson. He said, as a business owner he didn't like a lot of Corbyn's more radical ideas but at least he cared about people, and that Johnson is just a privileged spoilt boy. The guy himself came from a working class background but has done very well for himself. He also said he has no idea who votes for them, as nobody he knows has a good word to say about them.

In a roundabout way, I do think age is very important in this discussion. Most people under 50, particularly those under 35 hardly know a Tory. They are a very niche group. However you also have to accept that in terms of over 55's, they are mass support even amongst more working class elements of society. The benefit to the Tories is that it's a reliable section of the vote base, the downside is that it's an ever decreasing section.

In specific areas, I think the link was really stretched under Blair. He prioritised more middle class areas for narrow tactical reasons, and was too cautious in redistributing wealth to such areas. I do think there was a large sense of betrayal from these areas.

Corbyn has done some good stuff to address it. Part of his issue though, is that the support base is centred in cities, amongst younger people. People often look at students as all middle class, but most of them aren't. Most rent a bedroom in a house and will work on top of studying. It's probably unfair to call them middle class, but their priorities are very different to many outside of the hub.

What they probably haven't recognised, is Brexit Labour supporters held the keys to this election. This group, will essentially cost Labour the election if it's lost. More tactical effort should have been made to contact and try to keep them on board. It's a much harder, longer process though.

As for why we are losing? Part of it is the media. There is an enormous bias here. It plays a factor. However it does need to be "priced in" if you are Labour. It's actually why I think removing Corbyn to get someone the media like is foolhardy. Whoever leads Labour is going to be tarnished. They had a Jewish leader before, and slaughtered him because he couldn't eat a bacon sandwich. Thats the level of discourse we have. Labour will never win on wanting a friendly media.

Look, we have to reflect honestly what we face. Since 1997 there has been a growing right of centre vote. We won under Blair because the tories were woeful and got between 8-9 million votes. They now get 12-13 million. The right wing vote was previously very split, and has come home to one party at the last 2 elections, coalescing around the Brexit question. Once this question goes, many who lent a vote will go back to not voting and I imagine the wider splits open again.

Under Corbyn we have added votes. We'd also seen a reversal of the trend to see votes moving from centre-to left to centre- to right. The problem is, Labour has not been able to dominate the centre left position quite as well while the right has been more unified.

So whatever happens at the election on Thursday, Labour has done a lot of things well. Personally I think they've not been ambitious enough between elections. They are still stuck in the mode of electionism and haven't fundamentally altered the fabric of the Labour Party enough (or at all). There is too much caution going on. Corbin has tried to govern like an orthodox leader which he has neither the skills and reputation for. He should have made more explicit his anti-establishment credentials. It would have probably made what is a radical manifesto more palatable and believable to people.

Lets see though. It will be a close game. A tiny % of voters probably stand between Corbyn being labelled a loser, or arguably the greatest leader Labour have had. He's probably somewhere in the middle.
 
It's an interesting question. I remember Neil Kinnock explain a conversation he had with (I think) Joe Gormley. The miners were the best paid that they had ever been with collective bargaining established. Most had decent cars, many were buying their own houses and having regular foreign holidays. Unthinkable for the historic working classes. Gormley said to Kinnock ".....and you want to tell them, Brothers, let me take you away from all this."
Corbyn's ideals, noble as they are, may turn off some working class voters simply because they appear to demonise the aspiration of the individual.


I don't think this isn't true though. They're proposing a bit more tax to the richest. If anything their policies give hope to many people to be able to achieve their individual ambitions.
 
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FFS Bruce! I've just spat my coke everywhere.
 
It's an interesting question. I remember Neil Kinnock explain a conversation he had with (I think) Joe Gormley. The miners were the best paid that they had ever been with collective bargaining established. Most had decent cars, many were buying their own houses and having regular foreign holidays. Unthinkable for the historic working classes. Gormley said to Kinnock ".....and you want to tell them, Brothers, let me take you away from all this."
Corbyn's ideals, noble as they are, may turn off some working class voters simply because they appear to demonise the aspiration of the individual.

Yes I see it a lot about Labour and the working class, but I always wonder what people's definitions of working class are.

My mum and dad were from very working class (poor) background. Both consider themselves working class to this day. However my dad is retired (pre 60) and he worked for a bank, while my mum has risen to be a deputy head and will likely be a Head teacher soon. They own a 4 bedroom detached house overlooking the sea etc etc.They have strong scouse accents and people would assume they are archetypal working class, but in terms of disposable income are probably in the top 15%, maybe even top 10% of the country.

You compare that to a very middle class kid from the home counties, who's parents were say solicitors, but who's paying 1300 a month rent on a 2 bed flat, paying back 9% on his student loan (of 50k) and is working as say a trainee solicitor on 28k per/a. People would view him as very middle class. However it's easy to see when you boil it down how one might be more taken with the ideas of a radical shift (on rent controls etc) and vote Labour, while the other may want a more cautious agenda.

Class intersects around age now. I remember seeing a poll which showed the ABCDE spectrum that shows UKIP (back in the day) used to do very well with C2 voters (unskilled working class, and C1 skilled working class). This was presented as evidence of working class support, When they looked at income percentiles though, it showed they had overwhelming support from the top 25% of society.

What it indicated to me, was many jobs, and perceptions we have as a society (particular what people who run polling companies have) are very skewed to the reality of what people earn. Jobs such as plumbers, brick layers etc that people once saw as very working class can now on many occasions be very lucrative (and good luck to those involved doing them as well) while at the same time many professional jobs that we see as middle class have really seen incomes tumble.

So I am always a bit wary about generalisations about Labour losing working class support, I often think what we understand to be middle or working class may be a little skewed and based around cultural stereotypes as material realities.
 
I disagree slightly here, in the idea that Corbyn has “a lot of baggage” and therefore the papers are just revealing it.

Everyone (certainly every politician) has baggage, the difference is that Corbyn’s is reported on with the very worst interpretation, constantly.

Take his “support of the IRA” for example. He has (at least IIRC) never supported the armed struggle, but is a republican and did repeatedly meet with people from SF, even when they were banned from the TV.

Meanwhile Claire Fox, whose RCP group (many of whom went with her to the BP and at least one of whom now works for Johnson himself) actually did support the armed struggle even into the 1990s and after bombings on the mainland, is apparently not someone who “supports terrorists”.


You can add John McDonnell to that list too. If Corbyn enjoyed flirting with the IRA, McDonnell left his wife and shacked up with it in a caravan.
 
People who are working. They don't see themselves as 'poor'. They are concerned with their jobs, they have aspiration, they want a safety net for the vulnerable but they don't want everything gifted to them at the expense of themselves. They want political and economical evolution, not revolution.

As for whether it started before Corbyn, an argument could certainly be made for that, but he's undoubtedly exacerbated it an awful lot.

I'm not saying the Tories are suddenly the party of the working class - of course they aren't. I'm saying the working class are now in a political wilderness, represented by no one, having to make the choice between right wing elitists and left wing ideologists. The problem Labour have is, given that choice, more and more will go with Johnson over Corbyn if they had a gun to their head as he represents the lesser risk to their lives and aspirations.

Corbyn/Momentum people have to ask themselves a hard question and look honestly for the answers - why are you losing? Why are you still the underdog after a decade of Tory austerity and incompetence? The answer isn't "the media" - it just isn't. Loads of people I know don't even know what a Kuenssberg is and care even less about what she tweets - it's what Corbyn and Momentum say and do that is so offputting.

If your average person doesn't know what a Kuenssberg is, then surely I'm right in saying they don't what a Momentum is either. They are however aware of the sustained attack on Corbyn for the past 4 years. Vilified in a way no other politician in modern history has been. This filters through, this plays on voters' mind who only have a casual interest in politics.

I always ask this question and I never get any reply, what does any Labour leader do to win the likes of Grimsby and Sunderland in this election? Because that is all that stands between Labour being in government or spending 5 more years in the wilderness. It's the reason they're losing but answers on a post card as to how you reverse it.
 
Yes I see it a lot about Labour and the working class, but I always wonder what people's definitions of working class are.

My mum and dad were from very working class (poor) background. Both consider themselves working class to this day. However my dad is retired (pre 60) and he worked for a bank, while my mum has risen to be a deputy head and will likely be a Head teacher soon. They own a 4 bedroom detached house overlooking the sea etc etc.They have strong scouse accents and people would assume they are archetypal working class, but in terms of disposable income are probably in the top 15%, maybe even top 10% of the country.

You compare that to a very middle class kid from the home counties, who's parents were say solicitors, but who's paying 1300 a month rent on a 2 bed flat, paying back 9% on his student loan (of 50k) and is working as say a trainee solicitor on 28k per/a. People would view him as very middle class. However it's easy to see when you boil it down how one might be more taken with the ideas of a radical shift (on rent controls etc) and vote Labour, while the other may want a more cautious agenda.

Class intersects around age now. I remember seeing a poll which showed the ABCDE spectrum that shows UKIP (back in the day) used to do very well with C2 voters (unskilled working class, and C1 skilled working class). This was presented as evidence of working class support, When they looked at income percentiles though, it showed they had overwhelming support from the top 25% of society.

What it indicated to me, was many jobs, and perceptions we have as a society (particular what people who run polling companies have) are very skewed to the reality of what people earn. Jobs such as plumbers, brick layers etc that people once saw as very working class can now on many occasions be very lucrative (and good luck to those involved doing them as well) while at the same time many professional jobs that we see as middle class have really seen incomes tumble.

So I am always a bit wary about generalisations about Labour losing working class support, I often think what we understand to be middle or working class may be a little skewed and based around cultural stereotypes as material realities.
All of that is true. We can tie ourselves in knots about class when the real issue is income / status. Your income / status can change ( positively or negatively)through a variety of separate or linked factors some of which you are able to influence and others which are beyond your control.
Your class never changes.
 
I registered for a postal vote as I thought I was going to be away with work, however the dates changed and now I haven’t used my postal vote and will be able to vote on Election Day. Am I still eligible to vote on the day at my polling station or have I well and truly effed it all up?
 
Yes I see it a lot about Labour and the working class, but I always wonder what people's definitions of working class are.

My mum and dad were from very working class (poor) background. Both consider themselves working class to this day. However my dad is retired (pre 60) and he worked for a bank, while my mum has risen to be a deputy head and will likely be a Head teacher soon. They own a 4 bedroom detached house overlooking the sea etc etc.They have strong scouse accents and people would assume they are archetypal working class, but in terms of disposable income are probably in the top 15%, maybe even top 10% of the country.

You compare that to a very middle class kid from the home counties, who's parents were say solicitors, but who's paying 1300 a month rent on a 2 bed flat, paying back 9% on his student loan (of 50k) and is working as say a trainee solicitor on 28k per/a. People would view him as very middle class. However it's easy to see when you boil it down how one might be more taken with the ideas of a radical shift (on rent controls etc) and vote Labour, while the other may want a more cautious agenda.

Class intersects around age now. I remember seeing a poll which showed the ABCDE spectrum that shows UKIP (back in the day) used to do very well with C2 voters (unskilled working class, and C1 skilled working class). This was presented as evidence of working class support, When they looked at income percentiles though, it showed they had overwhelming support from the top 25% of society.

What it indicated to me, was many jobs, and perceptions we have as a society (particular what people who run polling companies have) are very skewed to the reality of what people earn. Jobs such as plumbers, brick layers etc that people once saw as very working class can now on many occasions be very lucrative (and good luck to those involved doing them as well) while at the same time many professional jobs that we see as middle class have really seen incomes tumble.

So I am always a bit wary about generalisations about Labour losing working class support, I often think what we understand to be middle or working class may be a little skewed and based around cultural stereotypes as material realities.
I always work on the premiss that if you have to wait for a monthly bank deposit to pay your bills,you're working class.Everything else is aspirational delusion
 
I don't think this isn't true though. They're proposing a bit more tax to the richest. If anything their policies give hope to many people to be able to achieve their individual ambitions.
That may be true in fact, but it certainly isn't true in perception. Corbyn, fairly or unfairly, has been unable to escape the perception that he is an extreme socialist that's about to go all Venezula on the UK economy. Fact ought to triumph over perception, but it doesn't in this election of lies and counter lies.
 
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