Current Affairs The Far Right

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh. Jordan Peterson again. That's a bit disappointing. So nothing then about "postmodernist government," then? Just "we should restore the sexual morality of the Victorian age" ?

I find him so distasteful, not because of anything he says necessarily, but how he conducts himself. Total disregard for professional ethics.

He bores me to death. Get to the point already. I would much prefer his views in 140 characters or less.
 
Now seeing the alt-right using the reasoning that if the lefties hadn't shown up everything would have been peaceful and no one would have gotten killed. Yeeeeaaaaahhhhhhhh ok. Love to see a lawyer use that for a murder defense, "Your Honour, my client would have had no one to kill if his wife had never come home that night so if anyone is to blame, she is."

It's ridiculous. You come marching into a town chanting Heil Trump, blood and soil, and stuff like gas the kikes...you are looking for a fight.
 
The violence is clearly illegal; it's up to the participants to engage or disengage in violent/non-violent speech. I don't think that's entirely analogous to specific examples (i.e., fire in a crowded theatre) and even these seem to be punishable based on consequences. I would agree that if someone organized and incited a crowd to violence they should be legally culpable, but hateful speech in and of itself doesn't necessarily seem to fit this definition.

It's hard to comprehend why the courts don't deem the likes of the KKK a hate group and therefore ban their gatherings and speeches.

From what I've read--I claim no expertise--it seems the threshold for determining that certain demonstrations, in advance, will lead to "imminent lawless action" is quite hard to do, which is why many demonstrations are often allowed to go ahead. In the case of C'ville, the judges decision was pretty clear (falling on side of the Plaintiff-@$sshole, and the ACLU) that the town did not convincingly argue that that violence would occur, and the Plaintiff also indicated that it would be a safe demonstration, as noted in the ACLU letter I posted a few pages ago (...and how many hate groups, which aren't illegal, are going to say in advance that they are going to cause violence?).

It appeared that the town was trying to ban the rally before it occurred more based on content of speech (the hateful ideas), but didn't make a good case that safety was the major issue. From what I gather, municipalities can limit the time, place, and manner, of speeches--as in moving a demonstration to another area--but C'ville just didn't convince the judge that safety, as opposed to content, was the motivation.

So it seems that it is very difficult to anticipate if someone's free-speech demonstration will result in violence. But if it does, then obviously the government can prosecute people for criminal acts, but they can't pre-emptively limit someone's free-speech without making a hell of a good case, so it seems. I wonder, now though, how these events in C'ville will change how courts rule on free-speech, and especially how cities argue the potential for imminent lawless action (see Hess v. Indiana), and/or how citizens are retroactively prosecuted if it does lead to violence. I wish there was some lawyers on here to disentangle these issues.
 
From what I've read--I claim no expertise--it seems the threshold for determining that certain demonstrations, in advance, will lead to "imminent lawless action" is quite hard to do, which is why many demonstrations are often allowed to go ahead. In the case of C'ville, the judges decision was pretty clear (falling on side of the Plaintiff-@$sshole, and the ACLU) that the town did not convincingly argue that that violence would occur, and the Plaintiff also indicated that it would be a safe demonstration, as noted in the ACLU letter I posted a few pages ago (...and how many hate groups, which aren't illegal, are going to say in advance that they are going to cause violence?).

It appeared that the town was trying to ban the rally before it occurred more based on content of speech (the hateful ideas), but didn't make a good case that safety was the major issue. From what I gather, municipalities can limit the time, place, and manner, of speeches--as in moving a demonstration to another area--but C'ville just didn't convince the judge that safety, as opposed to content, was the motivation.

So it seems that it is very difficult to anticipate if someone's free-speech demonstration will result in violence. But if it does, then obviously the government can prosecute people for criminal acts, but they can't pre-emptively limit someone's free-speech without making a hell of a good case, so it seems. I wonder, now though, how these events in C'ville will change how courts rule on free-speech, and especially how cities argue the potential for imminent lawless action (see Hess v. Indiana), and/or how citizens are retroactively prosecuted if it does lead to violence. I wish there was some lawyers on here to disentangle these issues.

There's at least on here, but I'm not sure how frequently he visits any more. I don't see him popping into these threads often.

I "know" a* blue lawyer via twitter but I don't think he GOTs.

*2 actually
 
Err, I'm really no more an expert on free speech than anybody with access to Wikipedia, but I seem to remember the following (this is from memory, so I'm open to correction):

Speech is protected from government (not private) censorship to varying degrees. Imagine a spectrum from low protection (obsenity) to high protection (political).

The problem with hate speech is that it falls all over the spectrum, being at times both obscene and political. So hate speech is not illegal, but it is subject to reasonable restrictions. The line has traditionally been drawn at speech that is likely to incite violence.

But even then, restrictions to speech must be tailored to prohibit harm while preserving the freedom of speech. This is why protests can generally be subject to permits, curfews, etc.

The police in Virginia probably handled the front end correctly and appear to have had police present to separate the protests at the main location. The issues worsened after police ordered things to break up. At that point, elements of both sides became decentralized. That made them harder to police and harder for group leaders to control.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top