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[Amw79]

'course, but it's a double edged sword. It creates personal understanding but also creates potential bias.

You have to be black to experience racism towards black people of course, but not necessarily to understand it.

It's like that on many subjects really. Random example that no doubt the usual suspects will jump on, but it's simply an example - you don't have to have fought in World War 2 to understand World War 2.

Sure, but no-one is free from bias - even you, believe it or not. Distance from an experience doesn’t necessarily mean objectivity.

Also, having direct experience can, rather than just make you biased, create a much deeper understanding.

 

[dead_soft]

They're both the same thing. They are gestures, acts, to express a belief. Both gestures can be done for political reasons or racist/anti-racist reasons.

The reason you wouldn't say it the other way around is simply because you agree strongly with one and not the other. So there's no objectivity being shown.

Nah, it's because it's ridiculous to try and suggest they are both the same thing just because you've got yourself tangled up in this and believe you're entirely unbiased

I'd probably consider my biases if I'd said this about Remain and a potential recession

Can only hope the scale of this recession sees riots in the streets when people realise they were conned. It's going to seemingly take a while for the dullards to realise it though, considering that result.

and then this about black people and racial injustice

But that's the thing - the aim should be to convince the wider public that their view is just and therefore become the majority opinion. You don't do that by smashing buildings up; all it does is stiffen the resolve of the opposing view and, indeed, give the opposing view credibility.

 

[Tubey]

Sure, but no-one is free from bias - even you, believe it or not. Distance from an experience doesn’t necessarily mean objectivity.

Also, having direct experience can, rather than just make you biased, create a much deeper understanding.

Personal understanding.

For example, I'm a working-class British lad - it doesn't mean my experience of that alone means I know more about the subject than anyone else, it simply means I have a personal 'head start'.

And sure, nobody is free of biases, but similarly not everyone is equally prone to bias. Again, skin colour in that regard is a non-factor - you can be black and be Barack Obama or Candace Owens, it makes no odds.

 

[Tubey]

Nah, it's because it's ridiculous to try and suggest they are both the same thing just because you've got yourself tangled up in this and believe you're entirely unbiased

I'd probably consider my biases if I'd said this about Remain and a potential recession



and then this about black people and racial injustice

Again, you completely ignore the fact I supported the demonstrations following the death of George Floyd.

Things run their natural course though. Once something is ineffective, it's ineffective.

And they are absolutely the same thing at their core - they are both gestures.

 

[Amw79]

Personal understanding.

For example, I'm a working-class British lad - it doesn't mean my experience of that alone means I know more about the subject than anyone else, it simply means I have a personal 'head start'.

And sure, nobody is free of biases, but similarly not everyone is equally prone to bias. Again, skin colour in that regard is a non-factor - you can be black and be Barack Obama or Candace Owens, it makes no odds.

Didn’t say that. Not suggesting only lived experience matters, or even that it’s the most important thing. However there are instances where a lived experience undoubtedly adds a rich source of information to the understanding of a problem.

We’re not talking about numbers or data here, we’re talking about people, emotions, psychology, complex social interactions. These things don’t always offer themselves well to quantitative objectivity, as you’re missing a big part of the picture.

 

[Tubey]

Didn’t say that. Not suggesting only lived experience matters, or even that it’s the most important thing. However there are instances where a lived experience undoubtedly adds a rich source of information to the understanding of a problem.

We’re not talking about numbers or data here, we’re talking about people, emotions, psychology, complex social interactions. These things don’t always offer themselves well to quantitative objectivity, as you’re missing a big part of the picture.

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm actually agreeing with you. All I'm saying is you don't have to have that lived experience to have a rich view on a subject matter.

So when deadsoft is saying people shouldn't have a view on the knee if they're not black - "stop telling black people what to do" - he's blatantly incorrect; it's a reductive stance where you try and dismiss opposing views based, ironically, on race. I highlighted how ludicrous that would be in reverse, but he doesn't understand the contradiction.

Race, on any subject, isn't a barrier to having a viewpoint, including on the subject of racism. You don't have to be Chinese to have a view on Chinese Uighur abuses, or Russian to have a view on Russian foreign policy. It doesn't matter how much being those things adds personal context, because you are just as able to develop a layered view based on evidence; the "psychology" of being Russian/Chinese isn't a primary factor.

 

[dead_soft]

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm actually agreeing with you. All I'm saying is you don't have to have that lived experience to have a rich view on a subject matter.

So when deadsoft is saying people shouldn't have a view on the knee if they're not black - "stop telling black people what to do" - he's blatantly incorrect; it's a reductive stance where you try and dismiss opposing views based, ironically, on race. I highlighted how ludicrous that would be in reverse, but he doesn't understand the contradiction.

Race, on any subject, isn't a barrier to having a viewpoint, including on the subject of racism. You don't have to be Chinese to have a view on Chinese Uighur abuses, or Russian to have a view on Russian foreign policy. It doesn't matter how much being those things adds personal context, because you are just as able to develop a layered view based on evidence; the "psychology" of being Russian/Chinese isn't a primary factor.

People can have whatever views they want. People should probably consider why they feel the need to tell people who have more experience, more awareness, and more understanding of an issue why they are actually wrong just because it doesn't fit with their view on the world (even though they may have done actually the most reading in the world, and read and understood everything on every side and is actually dead clever actually)

 

[Tubey]

People can have whatever views they want. People should probably consider why they feel the need to tell people who have more experience, more awareness, and more understanding of an issue why they are actually wrong just because it doesn't fit with their view on the world (even though they may have done actually the most reading in the world, and read and understood everything on every side and is actually dead clever actually)

Skin colour automatically means they have more experience of racism - that's it. It doesn't mean they automatically have more awareness or understanding of it beyond how it has personally affected them. And it certainly doesn't mean they have more awareness or understanding of the effectiveness of a gesture.

My view, your view or anyones view can be just as valid as anyone else, regardless of skin colour, on the matter of taking the knee and how it influences the anti-racism cause.

 

[dead_soft]

Skin colour automatically means they have more experience of racism - that's it. It doesn't mean they automatically have more awareness or understanding of it beyond how it has personally affected them. And it certainly doesn't mean they have more awareness or understanding of the effectiveness of a gesture.

My view, your view or anyones view can be just as valid as anyone else, regardless of skin colour, on the matter of taking the knee and how it influences the anti-racism cause.

It means they've lived with it their whole life, it means they've had to confront it, it means they've had to know about it. Sure, you may know more about racism and the importance of this gesture than they do, maybe you have this amazing insight you can grant them. I know you certainly feel you do. If it was me, I'd probably suggest listening to those people rather than the guy who keeps trying to defend a position that he reckons must be right because it feels right to him. Or you can be the man who has a breadth of understanding on race and the significance of anti-racism gestures because he reads The Guardian AND listens to TalkRadio.

 

[Tubey]

It means they've lived with it their whole life, it means they've had to confront it, it means they've had to know about it. Sure, you may know more about racism and the importance of this gesture than they do, maybe you have this amazing insight you can grant them. I know you certainly feel you do. If it was me, I'd probably suggest listening to those people rather than the guy who keeps trying to defend a position that he reckons must be right because it feels right to him. Or you can be the man who has a breadth of understanding on race and the significance of anti-racism gestures because he reads The Guardian AND listens to TalkRadio.

Priti Patel has experienced racism her entire life, her parents were immigrants, family of newsagents, has worked herself up through politics, has held the position of International Business and Home Secretary.

According to you, by definition, she has "more experience, more awareness, and more understanding" of the issue of racism than you or I ever will. She is, by every metric, vastly more qualified by your definition to comment on this matter than us. Indeed, as a person with her background and career experience, she's more qualified than pretty much any and every footballer and protester that has taken the knee in the United Kingdom.

She called taking the knee "gesture politics" and doesn't support it.

So tell me; why don't you take her word as law on this subject? Shouldn't you "probably consider" why you think she's "wrong" because it doesn't fit in with "your world view"? Why aren't you "listening" mate?

Do you see now? Do you see how stupid what you're saying is now?

You don't want me to "listen"; what you want is subservience to a viewpoint you agree with. I do listen; I simply don't agree.

 

[tsubaki]

Priti Patel has experienced racism her entire life, her parents were immigrants, family of newsagents, has worked herself up through politics, has held the position of International Business and Home Secretary.

According to you, by definition, she has "more experience, more awareness, and more understanding" of the issue of racism than you or I ever will. She is, by every metric, vastly more qualified by your definition to comment on this matter than us. Indeed, as a person with her background and career experience, she's more qualified than pretty much any and every footballer and protester that has taken the knee in the United Kingdom.

She called taking the knee "gesture politics" and doesn't support it.

So tell me; why don't you take her word as law on this subject? Shouldn't you "probably consider" why you think she's "wrong" because it doesn't fit in with "your world view"? Why aren't you "listening" mate?

Do you see now? Do you see how stupid what you're saying is now?

You don't want me to "listen"; what you want is subservience to a viewpoint you agree with. I do listen; I simply don't agree.

TBF starting from a position where Priti Patel has more experience of racism than most people is where you are probably going wrong here.

I mean if that’s true, why did she jib off Mings and the others with the whole gesture politics thing *and* fail to do anything more meaningful instead?

 

[dead_soft]

Priti Patel has experienced racism her entire life, her parents were immigrants, family of newsagents, has worked herself up through politics, has held the position of International Business and Home Secretary.

According to you, by definition, she has "more experience, more awareness, and more understanding" of the issue of racism than you or I ever will. She is, by every metric, vastly more qualified by your definition to comment on this matter than us. Indeed, as a person with her background and career experience, she's more qualified than pretty much any and every footballer and protester that has taken the knee in the United Kingdom.

She called taking the knee "gesture politics" and doesn't support it.

So tell me; why don't you take her word as law on this subject? Shouldn't you "probably consider" why you think she's "wrong" because it doesn't fit in with "your world view"? Why aren't you "listening" mate?

Do you see now? Do you see how stupid what you're saying is now?

You don't want me to "listen"; what you want is subservience to a viewpoint you agree with. I do listen; I simply don't agree.

I did listen to her view on it, I listened to John Barnes too, and Wilfred Zaha. She definitely has more experience, more awareness, and more understanding of it. I've not asked anyone's word to be taken as law, you've done another thing where you make stuff up that you really want to be true because you get yourself a bit in a tizzy. Listening isn't agreeing but it will help you understand.

It's not that you don't agree with them it's that you tell people what their gesture means, when they've said repeatedly it doesn't, you try and show stats to back up your views when they don't but then say they do, you repeatedly try to explain why things aren't actually a race thing when it seems they are, you keep say you listen but absolutely nothing suggests you do.

I wasn't particularly sure about the knee at the start, wasn't a fan of corporations co-opting it but when black players say why they do this, and why they feel it is important with evidence proven every single day then I think it's okay to say that you don't know as much as them about this issue and if they find it a useful and important gesture then fair enough. But maybe you're actually the one who knows the most, once again, and it's actually them who are causing division.

 

[Tubey]

TBF starting from a position where Priti Patel has more experience of racism than most people is where you are probably going wrong here.

I mean if that’s true, why did she jib off Mings and the others with the whole gesture politics thing *and* fail to do anything more meaningful instead?

I did not say that, so I can't be going "wrong" because of it.

Here's Kwasi Kwarteng.



Here's James Cleverley.

Black MP says 'Taking the knee is not for everyone' in BLM booing row

The Minister of state for the Middle East and North Africa James Cleverly has backed criticism of the Black Lives Matter movement after Millwall fans booed players taking the knee.

www.dailymail.co.uk

We don't take their word as verbatim as we obviously understand there's other motivations on their comments. That's why you don't "listen" to people regardless of context because of their skin colour or background; you take views on board with context instead.

 

[Tubey]

I did listen to her view on it, I listened to John Barnes too, and Wilfred Zaha. She definitely has more experience, more awareness, and more understanding of it. I've not asked anyone's word to be taken as law, you've done another thing where you make stuff up that you really want to be true because you get yourself a bit in a tizzy. Listening isn't agreeing but it will help you understand.

It's not that you don't agree with them it's that you tell people what their gesture means, when they've said repeatedly it doesn't, you try and show stats to back up your views when they don't but then say they do, you repeatedly try to explain why things aren't actually a race thing when it seems they are, you keep say you listen but absolutely nothing suggests you do.

I wasn't particularly sure about the knee at the start, wasn't a fan of corporations co-opting it but when black players say why they do this, and why they feel it is important with evidence proven every single day then I think it's okay to say that you don't know as much as them about this issue and if they find it a useful and important gesture then fair enough. But maybe you're actually the one who knows the most, once again, and it's actually them who are causing division.

She does not.

There's every reason to believe you or I - probably both of us - have a lot more awareness and understanding of this issue than Priti Patel. The reason is because of the massive prism of bias she has that shapes her world view.

 

[dead_soft]

She does not.

There's every reason to believe you or I - probably both of us - have a lot more awareness and understanding of this issue than Priti Patel. The reason is because of the massive prism of bias she has that shapes her world view.

I believe she will pursue politics at the expense of her understanding and awareness but I'm not getting into whether Patel does or does not understand racism but if it makes you feel fuzzy we can say you understand the most through your tireless career in combating racism.