Current Affairs The Conservative Party
- Thread starter Ashtonian
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dead_soft
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So you listen to EVERYONE? No wonder you’re confused so often. Why can’t you dismiss people who routinely make stupid comments?
And the rest is so so David Brent.
There you go. Therein lies the difference between me and you. You judge the person, not the content of what they say. I don't.
If Owen Jones or Dan Hodges opens their mouth about any given subject, I'm a blank slate and willing to see the merit of their comments. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to me what they've had to say about anything else, unless it is of direct consequence to the subject at hand, such as a fundamental contradiction.
You don't. Dan Hodges could make the most eloquent, fact-filled comment about absolutely anything, and you wouldn't give a toss because it's Dan Hodges.
And I'm not surprised in the slightest, as it's what you do routinely on here too.
dead_soft
Player Valuation: £35m
Yes, I’ll make sure to go out of my way to listen to Russ Abbot’s views on Covid before I go out on July 19th just in case.
I can’t work out if you’re being serious about the blank slate thing. Like people who say they just don’t get influenced by advertising.
It's fascinating to me that your view of listening to various ideas is akin to being influenced by advertising. Like if you watch GB News you'll immediately morph into Darren Grimes.
Do you honestly think the, er, "more politically active and politically knowledgable than you" that you would "accept an ounce of learning from" don't receive massive doses of propaganda from their own sources?
It's actually more dangerous not to listen to multiple points of view, because if you only listen to people you already agree with, you become more and more indoctrinated.
My approach is simple - I approach any given subject with the thought process that what I already think may be wrong, and even if I'm right, there's still something I can learn to deepen my understanding. As a person, I'm fascinated by what I don't understand - for example, Brexit; in many, many ways it makes no sense to me, but I've always wanted to learn. Not so I can agree with the decision to vote leave, but so I can simply at least understand it.
dead_soft
Player Valuation: £35m
Didn’t even come close to saying the first point.
I think most people are influenced from places they don’t realise. I certainly am and I certainly have biases. Always worth checking these and questioning them. I can always do it more. I certainly hope I don’t believe anyone blindly.
I certainly never said someone shouldn’t listen to multiple view points. It definitely seems like you really wish I had said it, though.
Really you approach any given subject and form an opinion and then are completely unflinching on it. All the polls show that kneeling is supported by more people than not. But you continue to say it’s divisive. I know the definition of divisive before you jump on that. But if we tried to get complete agreement on everything we’d never be able to have governments. We’d never achieve anything. I have zero doubt that any other statement or gesture against racism will work as well as this one. People talk about “Kick it Out” being more effective. Well that’s been around for ages and hasn’t changed things.
Most people support taking the knee. You have stuck to your opinion massively in the face of opposition and with nothing to back your point up. You can already see the government squirming over this. The tide seems to be hopefully changing and the taking of the knee I believe is a huge part of that. Look at the reaction after the final when Saka, Rashford and Sancho were horrendously abused. Some awful, awful people abused them. But the majority backed them massively and there was a huge outpouring of support for them. A presenter on GB News took the knee ffs. Taking the knee is working and some awful gammons and terrible politicians won’t change that.
Ah, that'll explain why I was in support of Kaepernick taking the knee and in support of the protests - including the knee - in the wake of George Floyd's death.
I definitely formed an opinion and then was completely unflinching on it.
Utter nonsense. My view changed, and it changed when I viewed the gesture as counter-productive rather than productive. I've explained why, I've gave evidence why - just because you disagree/ignore it doesn't mean I haven't said it. 40% of people are against the knee. Most people feel the BLM movement more widely now has made racial inequity worse. They are, whether people like it or not, inextricably linked - in modern discourse, it originated with Kaepernick and gained widespread notoriety through BLM. That connotation persists.
These are facts - this is division beyond racists/non-racists; this is wider society. Antagonism simply for the sake of antagonism is counter-productive, it makes people you're supposed to be trying to win over to a cause apathetic. It's not "complete agreement" I want; what I want is a gesture/movement that is so overwhelmingly obvious in its' cause being correct that it highlights the worst of people when they're against it. Whilst you have a gesture which can be logically, understandably opposed, you have failed in that cause.
It isn't working. You will unfortunately see it isn't working in the months to come, as I'm not deluded enough to think they'll change course no matter what I or anyone else says, but it isn't working. The best you and anyone can hope for now is that it's quietly dropped without too much embarrassment for anyone involved.
dead_soft
Player Valuation: £35m
Nah, the best we can hope for is that the people who keep telling black people who they should protest and how they should do it either realise their own biases or at least decide to shush.
Imagine saying that the other way around. Imagine telling black people they aren't entitled to a view on the people booing, and should "realise their own biases or at least decide to shush." Imagine the uproar.
Skin colour has no automatic bearing on the quality of an opinion on anything. All it does is give deeper personal context through "lived experience", that's all. Stop reducing people to stereotypes like "gammons", "karens", "snowflakes", "boomers" to dismiss views as irrelevant.
dead_soft
Player Valuation: £35m
Lived experience is quite important. I wouldn't say it the other way round because one is people taking a knee for 5 seconds, the other is people booing a gesture of anti-racism. I think it's important that people realise their own biases if it informs their views on what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. Black people have been told repeatedly and regularly what they should and shouldn't do and how to know their place. This is more of that.
Quite a big thing this though, no?
'course, but it's a double edged sword. It creates personal understanding but also creates potential bias.
You have to be black to experience racism towards black people of course, but not necessarily to understand it.
It's like that on many subjects really. Random example that no doubt the usual suspects will jump on, but it's simply an example - you don't have to have fought in World War 2 to understand World War 2.
dead_soft
Player Valuation: £35m
But if you fought in it you probably weren't wildly keen on those back home who tried to act like it wasn't that bad
They're both the same thing. They are gestures, acts, to express a belief. Both gestures can be done for political reasons or racist/anti-racist reasons.
The reason you wouldn't say it the other way around is simply because you agree strongly with one and not the other. So there's no objectivity being shown.
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