Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[tsubaki]

'course, but if you have a gesture that it's irrational to attack, that is genuinely anti-racism alone, then you highlight the irrationality of the opposition to it.

Indeed, that's why Kaepernick's original gesture worked - anyone against it was being ridiculous. That's why the immediate aftermath to George Floyd worked too.

TBF the immediate reaction to this was positive too, the booing / support of booing is relatively recent. People when it started supported it because they’d not been lied to by the media that it was something it wasn’t.

Also FWIW Kaepernick’s protest was greeted with the same sort of abuse, from more prominent people, as this was. Of course he paid a much higher price than our players have too; his career is basically over now.

 

[dead_soft]

Okiedokey. Let's see how all this plays out then, and then let's see how "floundering" my argument is. Let's see the end game of this in a few months time - I think you'll be surprised.

What do you think will happen in a few months?

 

[Tubey]

TBF the immediate reaction to this was positive too, the booing / support of booing is relatively recent. People when it started supported it because they’d not been lied to by the media that it was something it wasn’t.

Also FWIW Kaepernick’s protest was greeted with the same sort of abuse, from more prominent people, as this was. Of course he paid a much higher price than our players have too; his career is basically over now.

But it worked. He was right, the gesture was right, it got the message acrossed, it irked the right people and showed them up. The problem now is that it's not just irking the right people.

Also, the reaction to the players taking the knee wasn't relatively recent - when it started, nobody was allowed in football grounds. As soon as they were, it was booed. The artificial feeling of it being supported was then broken.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I did acknowledge that - I said "it basically acts as an official 'backhander' for what's called 'soft power' in other countries, so the aid will remain untouched in areas it really should be cut."

The public would prefer foreign aid to be cut and streamlined at the same time - only one of those things will happen unfortunately.

Which is going to be highlighted in big neon lights domestically... In particular China is still receiving aid everyone talks and worries about China in the context of CCP, poor Uyghurs, every good Tory has one.

 

[dead_soft]

But it worked. He was right, the gesture was right, it got the message acrossed, it irked the right people and showed them up. The problem now is that it's not just irking the right people.

Also, the reaction to the players taking the knee wasn't relatively recent - when it started, nobody was allowed in football grounds. As soon as they were, it was booed. The artificial feeling of it being supported was then broken.

Do you not see that this is what people always say about political gestures or actions that aim to change anything? People were saying the exact same thing at the time of Kaepernick. It wasn't an artificial feeling of it being supported, many people support it.

 

[Tubey]

What do you think will happen in a few months?

One of two things. Either the FA/Premier League will try to quietly drop it "for a new season", or they will continue, BLM protests of some sort will probably erupt again as the country opens up, which will once more highlight the link with taking the knee, and the public response will be one of increasing fury, and the Tories will ride the "I told you so" tidal wave.

If BLM/the footballers/everyone was smart, they'd drop that gesture utterly before that eventuality happens. Because there's no end game that's positive for them here with that gesture in place. The way out is to be smart and take advantage of the gains made in the aftermath of George Floyd, reset the fluff around it and make sustained political pressure.

Again, you'll disagree, but let's see what happens.

 

[Alan Whittle]

Every government is the same. Even holier than thou Corbyn faked Traingate to curry favour with the electorate, and Starmer went to hold wallpaper in a John Lewis shop in a stupid attempt to get votes.

Every government is not the same. It is their behaviour in government that determines what sort of a government they are. Your examples are about electioneering. Government and electioneering are not the same thing, something that this government, and you, have clearly misunderstood.

 

[Tubey]

Do you not see that this is what people always say about political gestures or actions that aim to change anything? People were saying the exact same thing at the time of Kaepernick. It wasn't an artificial feeling of it being supported, many people support it.

Yes, I do see it. I also see when something isn't working. I supported Kaepernick.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/nike-colin-kaepernick.104963/page-4#post-6554517

...it is enlightening that people aren't just disagreeing with Kaepernick on social media; there's been an immediate, visceral racist reaction to him.

Which, of course, validates his position.

The right gesture can work. Martin Luther King's peaceful protests, Rosa Parks, the Suffragettes desperation, all of these things highlight a core inequality and are gestures/actions taken purely for a set aim. The knee doesn't do that - it has too many other far reaching connotations, and that's why it's different; it is counter-productive to the aim now. It has been taken beyond its' core purpose and has been polluted.

 

[Tubey]

Every government is not the same. It is their behaviour in government that determines what sort of a government they are. Your examples are about electioneering. Government and electioneering are not the same thing, something the this government, and you, have clearly misunderstood.

Indeed. I'm saying all governments are the same in that to gain power they do exactly this - electioneering. Are governments all the same in power? No, obviously not. Are all governments the same in how they get power? Absolutely - they identify what's popular with an electorate and play to it. You have to or you don't get votes.

 

[dead_soft]

Yes, I do see it. I also see when something isn't working. I supported Kaepernick.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/nike-colin-kaepernick.104963/page-4#post-6554517

The right gesture can work. Martin Luther King's peaceful protests, Rosa Parks, the Suffragettes desperation, all of these things highlight a core inequality and are gestures/actions taken purely for a set aim. The knee doesn't do that - it has too many other far reaching connotations, and that's why it's different; it is counter-productive to the aim now. It has been taken beyond its' core purpose and has been polluted.

The difference seems to be that you don't like this gesture and you think it's causing division. You have limited proof to this but you really, really want to be right so you keep saying it.

I mean this, '
One of two things. Either the FA/Premier League will try to quietly drop it "for a new season", or they will continue, BLM protests of some sort will probably erupt again as the country opens up, which will once more highlight the link with taking the knee, and the public response will be one of increasing fury, and the Tories will ride the "I told you so" tidal wave.

If BLM/the footballers/everyone was smart, they'd drop that gesture utterly before that eventuality happens. Because there's no end game that's positive for them here with that gesture in place. The way out is to be smart and take advantage of the gains made in the aftermath of George Floyd, reset the fluff around it and make sustained political pressure.'

Is just so strange. Imagine saying 'If BLM/the footballers/everyone was smart, they'd drop that gesture utterly before that eventuality happens' after you've been repeatedly shown to be pretty wrong on this issue or at the very least, so far, not right. All I can see from you is that you're doing the usual knee-jerk that people who like the status quo do and saying, 'oh no this time this won't work, OTHER people (not me) are the problem you see' - those people are often proven wrong.

 

[tsubaki]

But it worked. He was right, the gesture was right, it got the message acrossed, it irked the right people and showed them up. The problem now is that it's not just irking the right people.

Also, the reaction to the players taking the knee wasn't relatively recent - when it started, nobody was allowed in football grounds. As soon as they were, it was booed. The artificial feeling of it being supported was then broken.

Not sure why annoying the right people over there was right, but annoying the right people over here is wrong tbh.

Also people did and do support it, a majority of them according to your previous post. Did anyone boo it at GP? To describe that as “artificial support” is wrong.

 

[Tubey]

The difference seems to be that you don't like this gesture and you think it's causing division. You have limited proof to this but you really, really want to be right so you keep saying it.

I mean this, '
One of two things. Either the FA/Premier League will try to quietly drop it "for a new season", or they will continue, BLM protests of some sort will probably erupt again as the country opens up, which will once more highlight the link with taking the knee, and the public response will be one of increasing fury, and the Tories will ride the "I told you so" tidal wave.

If BLM/the footballers/everyone was smart, they'd drop that gesture utterly before that eventuality happens. Because there's no end game that's positive for them here with that gesture in place. The way out is to be smart and take advantage of the gains made in the aftermath of George Floyd, reset the fluff around it and make sustained political pressure.'

Is just so strange. Imagine saying 'If BLM/the footballers/everyone was smart, they'd drop that gesture utterly before that eventuality happens' after you've been repeatedly shown to be pretty wrong on this issue or at the very least, so far, not right. All I can see from you is that you're doing the usual knee-jerk that people who like the status quo do and saying, 'oh no this time this won't work, OTHER people (not me) are the problem you see' - those people are often proven wrong.

Mate, 4 in every 10 football fans disapprove of this gesture. It's being booed before every game by thousands. What more proof do you need that this is causing division???

 

[Alan Whittle]

Yes, I do see it. I also see when something isn't working. I supported Kaepernick.

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/nike-colin-kaepernick.104963/page-4#post-6554517

The right gesture can work. Martin Luther King's peaceful protests, Rosa Parks, the Suffragettes desperation, all of these things highlight a core inequality and are gestures/actions taken purely for a set aim. The knee doesn't do that - it has too many other far reaching connotations, and that's why it's different; it is counter-productive to the aim now. It has been taken beyond its' core purpose and has been polluted.

Nobody knew they would have the impact they did until they were fully played out. There was plenty of racist rabble rousing around the bus protest, suffragettes were imprisoned and force fed. Mind you, you’re still referring to Rosa Parks and Martin Luther Kings sacrifice as a “gesture.” so it’s clear where you are on this matter.

 

[Tubey]

Not sure why annoying the right people over there was right, but annoying the right people over here is wrong tbh.

Also people did and do support it, a majority of them according to your previous post. Did anyone boo it at GP? To describe that as “artificial support” is wrong.

Artificial as to the assumption that it was universally approved.

4 in 10 football fans disapprove of taking the knee. Nearly half. It's the dictionary definition of a divisive gesture at this point. You can't just ignore that's happening.

 

[Alan Whittle]

Indeed. I'm saying all governments are the same in that to gain power they do exactly this - electioneering. Are governments all the same in power? No, obviously not. Are all governments the same in how they get power? Absolutely - they identify what's popular with an electorate and play to it. You have to or you don't get votes.

They’re not the government until they get power. Not all political parties dog whistle the electorate in the same way either. Some are transparently fouler than others.