Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[Tubey]

I didn't realise the general public had any clue about foreign policy? It's not the job of government to pander to the whims of people who can't be expected to know the first thing about the policies government are deciding on. That's why we have a government and don't hold referendums for every decision.

The job of a government is to win votes to be in a position of power to enact their policies.

Cutting foreign aid isn't a bellweather issue. It saves billions. It enables the government to avoid certain tax rises, which is unpopular. This in turn wins votes.

It's how the system works.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Two thirds of the public at the end of 2020 supported cutting foreign aid, including support across all political allegiances.

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The problem most have is simply about how it's done, what programs are cut. For years we sent most of the money to the likes of Pakistan - a nuclear power - and Nigeria. People oppose that.

Also, the UK foreign aid cut still puts it in line with the likes of Germany.

People can pretty stupid, who new! As for global Britain here it is in a picture.

 

[Alan Whittle]

The job of a government is to win votes to be in a position of power to enact their policies.

I think I prefer a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
Your version sounds very North Korean

 

[Tubey]

People can pretty stupid, who new! As for global Britain here it is a picture.

View attachment 133231

It's not stupid to be opposed to sending billions to China, India and Pakistan, when we've just tanked our own economy during a pandemic.

People don't have a problem with money going to those who badly need it, so they'd prefer the cut to be tied in to streamlining the money away from such countries, but of course it won't be due to the other problem with foreign aid - it basically acts as an official 'backhander' for what's called 'soft power' in other countries, so the aid will remain untouched in areas it really should be cut.

And again, the cut simply puts us in line with many other major economies - Germany has been around 0.5% for many years.

 

[Tubey]

I think I prefer a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
Your version sounds very North Korean

Every government is the same. Even holier than thou Corbyn faked Traingate to curry favour with the electorate, and Starmer went to hold wallpaper in a John Lewis shop in a stupid attempt to get votes.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but in reality all political parties care about is getting across the finish line. When they don't, they don't win - see Theresa May threatening the Triple Lock in 2017 for details. Objectively, the correct thing to do, yet political suicide.

 

[tsubaki]

The players could spend every second of their remaining lives explaining they're taking the knee purely as an anti-racism gesture, but if the connotations of that gesture in the public mind are something else, then it means the square sum of nothing.

Like I can't throw up a Nazi salute and say it's in support of Greenpeace. It doesn't matter if it is in support of Greenpeace, because the surrounding connotation of the gesture is overwhelming.

So it's not "twisting things", and it isn't even lying - it is a gesture that is inextricably tied to Black Lives Matter. Again, it doesn't matter if what the public believes about BLM is true or not, because perception is everything.

So you have a gesture that is seen as overtly political. So bin the gesture. Do something else. It really is that simple. You have people like this time and time again reasonably explaining the issue, and they're being completely ignored so as to continue to dig the hole they're in, because they refuse to accept the reality of the situation.

The thing you are missing of course is that any act, any protest is going to be portrayed in the same way, by the same people, with the same outcome. They (and you, sadly) will be dismissing everything that they don’t agree with and they’ll be using it to build lies that further divide the country.

Pretending otherwise, that there’s something that people could do to protest injustice that wouldn’t get this reaction, is just daft.

 

[dead_soft]

The players could spend every second of their remaining lives explaining they're taking the knee purely as an anti-racism gesture, but if the connotations of that gesture in the public mind are something else, then it means the square sum of nothing.

Like I can't throw up a Nazi salute and say it's in support of Greenpeace. It doesn't matter if it is in support of Greenpeace, because the surrounding connotation of the gesture is overwhelming.

So it's not "twisting things", and it isn't even lying - it is a gesture that is inextricably tied to Black Lives Matter. Again, it doesn't matter if what the public believes about BLM is true or not, because perception is everything.

So you have a gesture that is seen as overtly political. So bin the gesture. Do something else. It really is that simple. You have people like this time and time again reasonably explaining the issue, and they're being completely ignored so as to continue to dig the hole they're in, because they refuse to accept the reality of the situation.

It's all so odd. You complain about twitter as a bubble that people should get outside of but then cherry pick the comments off twitter that support your floundering argument. You complain that Starmer is losing support because he took the knee (despite all you have is stretching some poll numbers to say what you want them to say) yet when actual Tory MPs are saying 'woah, we might have got this wrong,' you just dismiss it as nothing but politicking. When even Mercer is saying that maybe the knee is being purposefully misconstrued by Tories (and you doing it as well) then it may be worth examining your views here.

So far racism has been headline news since Sunday, Tory MPs have come out and said they support the knee, the Home Secretary and Prime Minister are rightly facing criticism for stoking the fire of racism, clubs all around the world have made quite direct stands saying it's unacceptable, we've had high level pundits saying that they support them, and yet you reckon a load of (I reckon I can guess what class you're thinking of) the electorate will be turned away from anti-racism so this is actually an unsuccessful gesture.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's not stupid to be opposed to sending billions to China, India and Pakistan, when we've just tanked our own economy during a pandemic.

People don't have a problem with money going to those who badly need it, so they'd prefer the cut to be tied in to streamlining the money away from such countries, but of course it won't be due to the other problem with foreign aid - it basically acts as an official 'backhander' for what's called 'soft power' in other countries, so the aid will remain untouched in areas it really should be cut.

And again, the cut simply puts us in line with many other major economies - Germany has been around 0.5% for many years.

As I said so much for "Global Britain", we are counting on two of those countries for so called " free" Trade deals, I'm sure this will sweeten it all very nicely...

Germany can and will use the strength of the EU as and when, like all members. Go figure!

 

[Tubey]

The thing you are missing of course is that any act, any protest is going to be portrayed in the same way, by the same people, with the same outcome. They (and you, sadly) will be dismissing everything that they don’t agree with and they’ll be using it to build lies that further divide the country.

Pretending otherwise, that there’s something that people could do to protest injustice that wouldn’t get this reaction, is just daft.

'course, but if you have a gesture that it's irrational to attack, that is genuinely anti-racism alone, then you highlight the irrationality of the opposition to it.

Indeed, that's why Kaepernick's original gesture worked - anyone against it was being ridiculous. That's why the immediate aftermath to George Floyd worked too.

 

[Alan Whittle]

Pretending otherwise, that there’s something that people could do to protest injustice that wouldn’t get this reaction, is just daft.

Protest of any kind will soon be banned or heavily restricted by this government.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The job of a government is to win votes to be in a position of power to enact their policies.

Cutting foreign aid isn't a bellweather issue. It saves billions. It enables the government to avoid certain tax rises, which is unpopular. This in turn wins votes.

It's how the system works.

As I said, the average person knows feck all about international aid, and nor should they be expected to. The government, however, should know a bloody lot about it, such as that it benefits the UK economy.

Aid, exports and employment in the UK

In 2014, the UK gave $5.9 billion in direct bilateral aid, which increased UK exports by $0.22 per $1 spent and generated an estimated 12,000 UK jobs.

www.odi.org

There are people in the country who are actual experts in this field. Your approach is akin to ignoring Chris Whitty and SAGE and instead listening to Mondeo Man because it "wins votes".

 

[Tubey]

As I said, the average person knows feck all about international aid, and nor should they be expected to. The government, however, should know a bloody lot about it, such as that it benefits the UK economy.

Aid, exports and employment in the UK

In 2014, the UK gave $5.9 billion in direct bilateral aid, which increased UK exports by $0.22 per $1 spent and generated an estimated 12,000 UK jobs.

www.odi.org

There are people in the country who are actual experts in this field. Your approach is akin to ignoring Chris Whitty and SAGE and instead listening to Mondeo Man because it "wins votes".

My "approach" is simply acknowledging how politics works.

 

[Tubey]

It's all so odd. You complain about twitter as a bubble that people should get outside of but then cherry pick the comments off twitter that support your floundering argument. You complain that Starmer is losing support because he took the knee (despite all you have is stretching some poll numbers to say what you want them to say) yet when actual Tory MPs are saying 'woah, we might have got this wrong,' you just dismiss it as nothing but politicking. When even Mercer is saying that maybe the knee is being purposefully misconstrued by Tories (and you doing it as well) then it may be worth examining your views here.

So far racism has been headline news since Sunday, Tory MPs have come out and said they support the knee, the Home Secretary and Prime Minister are rightly facing criticism for stoking the fire of racism, clubs all around the world have made quite direct stands saying it's unacceptable, we've had high level pundits saying that they support them, and yet you reckon a load of (I reckon I can guess what class you're thinking of) the electorate will be turned away from anti-racism so this is actually an unsuccessful gesture.

Okiedokey. Let's see how all this plays out then, and then let's see how "floundering" my argument is. Let's see the end game of this in a few months time - I think you'll be surprised.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

My "approach" is simply acknowledging how politics works.

Just not the "geo" in politics...

 

[Tubey]

Just not the "geo" in politics...

I did acknowledge that - I said "it basically acts as an official 'backhander' for what's called 'soft power' in other countries, so the aid will remain untouched in areas it really should be cut."

The public would prefer foreign aid to be cut and streamlined at the same time - only one of those things will happen unfortunately.