Current Affairs Syria...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I appreciate the links.

I do disagree that the US has done this intentionally. I interpret that to mean that a command decision was made to strike a hospital, intelligence was used to target a hospital, pilots were briefed to attack a hospital and those same pilots carried out said plans. It is absolutely clear that hospitals, clinics and schools have been hit when they weren't the designated target. At the same time, claiming it was done intentionally is not supported by your links nor any I have seen, nor would such orders be carried out by those in the chain of command.

Obviously, the distinction I'm drawing is no comfort to the victims. It is vitally important to those who we have directed to go fight in this conflict.
 
The problem you have with this pete is twofold - firstly that there is nothing in international law that allows the international community to act when a country uses such weapons, largely because of the fear that the wrong country (ie: Saudi, Israel, the US, Russia in this case) might fall foul of it and the international order collapses as a result.

Secondly it is an absolutely absurd line to draw, that gassing a load of kids is completely wrong but landing an artillery shell in their midst isn't.

I’m not arguing your second point, I don’t believe any civilians should be dying.......
 
The problem you have with this pete is twofold - firstly that there is nothing in international law that allows the international community to act when a country uses such weapons, largely because of the fear that the wrong country (ie: Saudi, Israel, the US, Russia in this case) might fall foul of it and the international order collapses as a result.

Secondly it is an absolutely absurd line to draw, that gassing a load of kids is completely wrong but landing an artillery shell in their midst isn't.

Well, the UNSC can authorise Military strikes or Economic sanctions, but Russia keeps playing its veto......
 
I’m not arguing your second point, I don’t believe any civilians should be dying.......

Quite a human F up that a response to civilians getting killed is to escalate a situation where that could cause that to happen on an epic scale.

Russia has got too brazen for its own good and something needs to be done but this is brinkmanship of the highest order. Unless of course it is all a conspiracy to cover up the link between Russia helping Trump win the election. 'How can we possibly be helping when we are almost at war?'. Actually that would be the best out we have at the moment...
 
Firstly, your first link was actually Assad/Russia.

No. Read the article. The hospital attack's perp was unconfirmed, then it goes on to report on US/coalition atrocities: 56 dead here, 600 dead there etc.

The URL of that link even has "US airstrike kill dozens" in it.

And you still haven't answered the key question: why are chemical attacks worse than bombs?
 
No. Read the article. The hospital attack's perp was unconfirmed, then it goes on to report on US/coalition atrocities: 56 dead here, 600 dead there etc.

The URL of that link even has "US airstrike kill dozens" in it.

And you still haven't answered the key question: why are chemical attacks worse than bombs?

Erm... I'd suggest you follow your own advice. The US isn't even a suspect in it - it was either Syria or Russia.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group, said that the hospital in the rebel-held town of Kafar Takharim was heavily damaged and left barely operational.

Quoting sources on the ground, it said a jihadist from Jabhat Fateh al-Sham, formerly al-Qaeda-linked Jabhat al-Nusra, who was going to visit his wife in the hospital was killed in the raid.

"It was him that was targeted. He went to visit his wife who had just given birth when the bombing happened," the monitor said.

The Observatory did not specify if the raid was carried out by Syrian regime aircraft or warplanes of its Russian allies.

However, Friday's attack follows a pattern of government and Russian air strikes on clinics. Over the weekend, five hospitals and one blood bank in nearby Aleppo were hit, putting them out of service.

Also, why is it worse? They are indiscriminate and difficult to accurately deploy. Even if you target soldiers, the 'blowback' can harm civilians. Similar indiscriminate weapons are also worse and, therefore, largely banned - cluster bombs, napalm, land mines and so on. Whereas targeted missile strikes have an intent to hit a very defined target, as do simple weaponry such as a standard gun.

If you don't understand that and position every weapon under the label of 'bad', then that's on you. But for most people they'll be able to understand the moral and practical difference between a guided missile being used erroneously and having unintended consequences, and a chemical weapon attack which totally intends to cause horrific suffering for people over a wide area of effect.
 
...intends to cause horrific suffering for people over a wide area of effect.

While we interpret that article differently, and while we may disagree just how equally-horrific air-strikes can be (missing limbs, hearing and sight is common for survivors) let's re-focus on this:

with Assad's forces winning, and Assad's stock rising, with the war almost won, he then orders his miltary (who are but men) to deliberately "cause horrific suffering for people over a wide area of effect" to their fellow countrymen, knowing full-well there'll be a Western reaction, further delaying an end to the war.


Is he pathologically insane? Pure evil? Are his men 'just following orders'?

I think the cult of Hitler (i.e. 'the ultimate evil') has given Western propaganda much licence to create monsters.

Basically, I'm not seeing the straight line of logic you're seeing, tubes...

if I was the decision maker my goal would be to merely prevent further innocent deaths and the way to that seems to be to take the West out (including arms trading). Result: Assad resumes control: the rebels/mercenaries now without funding splinter off and do their thing elsewhere.

If i understand you correctly: you would prefer the West to react with strikes, which would not only kill more innocents but also prolong the war, costing yet more lives. Your justification for this is that you believe Assad will otherewise commit genocide against his own people.

Is that right? Have you ever watched any Assad interviews?
 
While we interpret that article differently, and while we may disagree just how equally-horrific air-strikes can be (missing limbs, hearing and sight is common for survivors) let's re-focus on this:

with Assad's forces winning, and Assad's stock rising, with the war almost won, he then orders his miltary (who are but men) to deliberately "cause horrific suffering for people over a wide area of effect" to their fellow countrymen, knowing full-well there'll be a Western reaction, further delaying an end to the war.


Is he pathologically insane? Pure evil? Are his men 'just following orders'?

I think the cult of Hitler (i.e. 'the ultimate evil') has given Western propaganda much licence to create monsters.

Basically, I'm not seeing the straight line of logic you're seeing, tubes...

if I was the decision maker my goal would be to merely prevent further innocent deaths and the way to that seems to be to take the West out (including arms trading). Result: Assad resumes control: the rebels/mercenaries now without funding splinter off and do their thing elsewhere.

If i understand you correctly: you would prefer the West to react with strikes, which would not only kill more innocents but also prolong the war, costing yet more lives. Your justification for this is that you believe Assad will otherewise commit genocide against his own people.

Is that right? Have you ever watched any Assad interviews?

Assad has already proven he'll do anything to retain power. He is a de facto dictator at this point; deeply insecure, striking out at anything and everything he perceives as a threat. His reliance on Russia is profound, as is his paranoia, as seen at the start of the Arab Spring revolt where he called his own people calling for him to go 'terrorists' and 'not Syrians', provoking a civil war instead of negotiating, let alone stepping aside.

Yes, I think he is a monster. Not because it's easy to do so, but because of his actions. I think he's called for chemical attacks time and time again on his own people to strike fear into their hearts. People like to point to how he was early in his reign when he wasn't under threat (as have you by pointing to his interviews), yet that simply doesn't matter given how we now know he's acted once he perceived one. Bill Cosby doesn't scream "date rape drug rapist" on The Cosby Show, does he?

Your solution means abandoning thousands upon thousands of people to the whims of a dictator to mass execute his own people. Your solution also fails to suggest that Russia leave Assad to his own devices, which I'd like to remind you that they were asked to do and did not several years ago (indeed, they intervened to prop up Assad when he was on the verge of losing, extending the civil war.)

I don't buy that solution myself. I don't believe ignoring something and hoping it goes away is a valid strategy. A victorious Assad, backed by an invigorated Russia, will be an authoritarian regime that will kill and kill again inside his own country to stifle internal threat (they have absolutely no reason not to; the more political opponents they get fleeing to Europe as refugees, the better), with a victory achieved by laughing in the face of international conventions on weaponry and human rights abuses.

However, I also understand that we may be powerless to stop it at this point. Indeed, I'm not convinced a 'Syrian War' with boots on the ground is a good idea at all. But that's why I want strikes, and you aren't understanding why. I want them targeted against their chemical weapon delivery systems. That should be the plan, because you still have to send the message that what happened over the last few days is not to be tolerated, for the long term good of the world if nothing else. You can't just have words, because they mean nothing if they're ignored.

Sometimes there are no good options; there are merely less bad options. I think that's what we have here - Russia and Syria may well win, but they shouldn't win without a slap down on the matter of chemical weaponry. We've already let Russia walk in and take Crimea unchallenged; we shouldn't be letting them have win after win a la Hitler with Czechoslovakia. Because that's what Putin has been doing - pushing and prodding, seeing how much he can get away with, seeing how weak the western resolve is. And, unfortunately, it's weak.
 
Dont think any of us can comment on Syria...what did our leaders do 4 years ago to prevent the carnage?We vote them in
 
Quite a human F up that a response to civilians getting killed is to escalate a situation where that could cause that to happen on an epic scale.

Russia has got too brazen for its own good and something needs to be done but this is brinkmanship of the highest order. Unless of course it is all a conspiracy to cover up the link between Russia helping Trump win the election. 'How can we possibly be helping when we are almost at war?'. Actually that would be the best out we have at the moment...

Putin believes he can get away with anything, poison people on the streets of the U.K. (it must have been the Brits), chemical bombs in Syria (it was done by the white helmet rescuers), and there are always some fools who will prefer to believe this. His use of the UNSC veto renders the organisation useless but they don’t care, they believe they can do anything without reply because we will tie ourselves in knots anguishing about which precise building in Russia produced a chemical weapon.......
 
Putin believes he can get away with anything, poison people on the streets of the U.K. (it must have been the Brits), chemical bombs in Syria (it was done by the white helmet rescuers), and there are always some fools who will prefer to believe this. His use of the UNSC veto renders the organisation useless but they don’t care, they believe they can do anything without reply because we will tie ourselves in knots anguishing about which precise building in Russia produced a chemical weapon.......

I don't disagree but it is going to be one hell of a mess if this goes south from here. Let's hope Russia don't get China on their side.
 
The problem you have with this pete is twofold - firstly that there is nothing in international law that allows the international community to act when a country uses such weapons, largely because of the fear that the wrong country (ie: Saudi, Israel, the US, Russia in this case) might fall foul of it and the international order collapses as a result.

Secondly it is an absolutely absurd line to draw, that gassing a load of kids is completely wrong but landing an artillery shell in their midst isn't.

Where does depleted uranium sit in all this? Maybe the children of Iraq could answer?
 
What’s the difference of choking on a chemical missile or being incinerated by our conventional missile? I know we are told that our bombs have real time intelligent blast radius and all that nonsense, the wet pious right like to hear only baddies get it, but we will incinerate innocent people as well when we lob a few over.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top