Current Affairs Syria...

[peteblue]

So did a bit of reading up on this and I'm still not sure.

It seems everyone is happy with the northern Syria self proclaimed autonomous area (except maybe Assad, but supported by the West and Russia). Nobody likes ISIL.

So it's down to Assad vs the opposition.

You've got Russia, Iran, and Iraq supporting Assad.

Then you've got the US, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.

What I can't figure out is why those sides were chosen by each. It certainly makes things messy when the US and Russia are opposite sides of a civil war on foreign land.

Simple really. Russia wants a Mediterranean base, Syria provides it. The west wants rid of Assad because of the way his Alawite Muslim government treat the Sunni majority, although it’s complicated further by the complete mix of religions and people’s, and also the West doesn’t really want Russia to have a Mediterranean base. It’s also a good testing ground for recently developed weaponry, even though this sounds abhorrent it’s what the west and it’s opponents have done for quite a while. So now that Russia has said it will shoot down missiles, the USA can throw them in and learn massively about Russia’s defence capability. Russia meanwhile has been testing its own cruise missiles and defence systems. Neither the USA nor Russia will suffer bombing, nor too many casualties. Politically one or other will come out on top, almost certainly the USA, but Putin will retain his hard man image unless he gets shown his arse.......oh and Turkey just want to beat the crap out of the Kurds.........in a nutshell.......

 

[Tubey]

Ok mate. Just out of interest did you believe the 45 minute thing and was you for or against the Iraq war.

You won't believe me, and I can't make any "swear down la" statement you'll believe, but no - I remember turning to my parents when that was happening and saying "this is nonsense, it's motivated by oil and there's absolutely no need to be rushing into this."

I was 100% against the Iraq War. I'm also against a 'Syrian War' right now - I am stating that we should have a measured response in terms of strikes etc. if/when those attacks are verified because, as Theresa May rightly (annoyingly) says, attacks of that nature can't go unanswered.

EDIT: To clarify, I was against the Iraq War the way it was staged. I had no issue in an eventual war with Hussein if it reached that point - but it very obviously had not reached that point when we went in.

 

[Jib in lad]

You won't believe me, and I can't make any "swear down la" statement you'll believe, but no - I remember turning to my parents when that was happening and saying "this is nonsense, it's motivated by oil and there's absolutely no need to be rushing into this."

I was 100% against the Iraq War. I'm also against a 'Syrian War' right now - I am stating that we should have a measured response in terms of strikes etc. if/when those attacks are verified because, as Theresa May rightly (annoyingly) says, attacks of that nature can't go unanswered.

EDIT: To clarify, I was against the Iraq War the way it was staged. I had no issue in an eventual war with Hussein if it reached that point - but it very obviously had not reached that point when we went in.

Fair enough.

 

[Tubey]

Fair enough.

Actually, can prove it haha - post made in 2013: https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/so-this-syria-thing.59719/page-18#post-2196442

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Again, happy to see it debated in parliament, but I don't see any viable conspiracy theory here.

Think it would be beneficial for the UK government come out with what rebels they are actually supporting in Syria, they acknowledge they are, just won’t say who. I would like to know who representing us on the ground, after all its my money (taxes) that is supporting them!

 

[dholliday]

I'm very familiar and I'm aware of legit 'false flag' attacks throughout history - see my last post. They're still incredible rare.

I know because the UN report on it essentially said so in 2013 and even Russia agreed to put pressure on Assad to 'destroy' his chemical weapons stock at the time. It was outside the UN remit to place blame but it was widely accepted as to who did it, hence the response. Any suggestion that Assad hasn't used chemical weapons at this point is simply being contrarian.

Assad survives to this day solely because of Russia. Firming up that support is common sense. But as said, that's speculation - you asked me to comment and that's a possible theory, and yes it may be as daft as a 'false flag' claim but at least I'm not putting it forward as a definite possibility for attacking him. The evidence of the chemical attack is the be all, end all for this. Let's see it debated in parliament and have an armed response as an option on the table if parliament agrees to it.

You say thing like they're a known fact, but they're not. It makes debating a bit tricky.

 

[magicjuan]

War isn't futile; it's often necessary and completely unavoidable. Because all that war is is one side initiating and another side reacting. Because they have to. To suggest both sides agree to such wars because it's profitable is ludicrous, but if you think that then so be it.

If you seriously think the World Wars were futile, I can't really help you, but I'd urge you to consider the world we'd live in today if either Kaiser Wilhelm or Adolf Hitler (yes, both) were allowed free reign because we didn't react 'because it'd be futile to do so.' Here's a clue - no liberal democracy; replaced by an expansionist authoritarian regime encompassing the entirety of Europe and eventually possibly the world, under a massive, all-powerful police state. That's no exaggeration - that was the end game of both of those leaders.

War is tragic, to be avoided wherever at all possible. But in itself it is anything but futile. Indeed, war often occurs to prevent the worst, not to cause it.

You are, imho, either spectacularly misinformed or spectacularly naive.
I may change my opinion if you put everything down and go and physically fight for your beliefs right now. Because those who support war and try to justify war tend to be those content for other people to do the fighting on their behalf. Was always thus. There is no rational justification for war. The only reason for war is greed. If you can't see that, then god help the rest of us.
As for what would have happened without the world wars? You description is basically the world we now inhabit. Read it again and tell me what isn't in place.

 

[Tubey]

You are, imho, either spectacularly misinformed or spectacularly naive.
I may change my opinion if you put everything down and go and physically fight for your beliefs right now. Because those who support war and try to justify war tend to be those content for other people to do the fighting on their behalf. Was always thus. There is no rational justification for war. The only reason for war is greed. If you can't see that, then god help the rest of us.
As for what would have happened without the world wars? You description is basically the world we now inhabit. Read it again and tell me what isn't in place.

Alright mate, sure.

 

[Tubey]

You say thing like they're a known fact, but they're not. It makes debating a bit tricky.

Ahh just my style, been told that before. It's not intended - but opinions are something you believe it right, so that's why I come across strongly in support of the opinion. I always try and back up what I say with supporting evidence to be fair - e.g. the UN report, noting it didn't directly cite blame but informally did so, as evidenced by the aftermath.

If you believe Assad hasn't used chemical weaponry, that's your view - I personally can't see why you'd come to that conclusion but so be it; it's an opinion.

 

[peteblue]

 

[Tubey]

Also, just been left momentarily speechless by someone actually saying the world would be no different now under Adolf Hitler.

 

[dholliday]

Someone invade US, Israel & Saudi Arabia right now and effect regime change. Nice one, Einstein.

 

[Jib in lad]

Actually, can prove it haha - post made in 2013: https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/so-this-syria-thing.59719/page-18#post-2196442

Is right.

 

[Tubey]

View attachment 45534

Yeah good quote. From a desire to do good, you can inadvertently do evil.

And to be fair, vice versa. The term is 'unintended consequences' - I mean hey, Hitler championed and popularised the motorway for example!

 

[magicjuan]

Also, just been left momentarily speechless by someone actually saying the world would be no different now under Adolf Hitler.

Everything you pointed out were his ambitions exist more or less now. If you struggle with that then you need to re-evaluate your interpretation of the world around you.