Current Affairs Rail strikes

[Bruce Wayne]

What you're doing here is what right wing parties across Europe tend to do: pointing out which focus group within the work base is worse off than the rest and ''wanting to help them'' instead of the other, privileged section. The others are better off, have ''perks'', are spoit self-centered brats (cfr the Royal Mail postal workers) or earn way too much (Train personnel), whilst others actually have it ''really hard'' and are self-employed and are ''left behind by the union''. The union 'doesn't get it' and 'holds the country hostage' for all the wrong reasons.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, union members represent about 20% of the overall workforce. It's not the job of any government to represent a small minority, but rather to represent all workers. Now I've no doubt at all that the Tories are crap at representing anyone, but no government should be beholden to a very vocal minority.

Your compassion starts when people have to go to the foodbank.
Fighting poverty alone doesn't do much in the fight for purchasing power for the working or middle class. That's two different things.

The fact is, you might have a bias against unions as they 'destroyed the automobile sector in the UK' (they didn't: Toyota and Honda are happy here + the much more unionized country of France has kept Citroen and Peugeot...)

Where have I said I don't feel compassion for anyone using a foodbank? All I've said is that when the vast majority (of nurses in this instance) don't use a foodbank, then there might be something unique to those 15% over and above them being nurses that is tipping them over the edge. If we don't even care what those reasons might be then we'll never be able to effectively help them.

You don't begrudge people higher pay? Yes you do, when it comes up in a discussion, you keep asking if they're more productive or not, ignoring the fact everybody lost 14% because of inflation (thus undermining your own point). Not to mention your in depth study into the pay and working conditions of train drivers and your conclusion they earn way waaay to much.

What other people earn is irrelevant so knock yourselves out, but we're here chewing the fat on a wide range of issues, and so it seems fair game to discuss the very real risks of stagflation if we get rising wages/inflation and flatlining productivity. Most economists agree that stagflation is far more damaging than inflation, but maybe we're back to "not needing experts" again.

The right to strike (be it for higher wages or better working conditions) to get a better deal is pretty much essential to any democracy. Without it, you deprive the weakest of their strongest tool, without it this country becomes a North Sea Chile. Without it you can forget about ever rejoining the EU. Without it, you can say hello to wild, unorganized strikes, fights and sabotage.

I don't know what Brexit has to do with any of this btw...

Once again, I haven't once stated that the right to strike be abolished, I've just said that I personally don't agree with it. Due to personal history I'm not a big fan of abortions, but that doesn't mean I want to abolish the right of others to have them.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You have repeatedly said this throughout this thread, but when repeatedly challenged on alternative methods of action, the only suggestion I've seen from you is 'change jobs'.

I don't know if that was in fact a joke from you, but obviously that's not the answer. It's not even an answer.

And just to add to the point that I firmly believe (as others on this thread do) that you are misdirecting your criticism to the wrong people. This is not the fault of the workers (the people), the buck firmly stops with the nasty Tory gov.

Well this is very much a lived experience I'm afraid. Pretty much every day I walk the wife home from work and she shares some dysfunctionality or other with the NHS. Should she be expected to change the entire NHS in order to make it work better? Is that really realistic? I would argue perhaps not. Her old man topped himself out of frustration at being unable to singlehandedly topple the communist regime in CZ. Sometimes you just have to accept that the path of least resistance might not be the one you want. I wouldn't say she's "quiet quitting", but for the sake of her mental health she has most certainly toned down the depth and breadth of her caring about the way things work (and she's very adamant that striking won't materially change matters, which I know goes against your own belief).

 

[peteblue]

The amount of people in this country who have no shame, lack any kind of empathy and are completely selfish human beings is staggering.

Would you be happy if all Tesco, Aldi, other supermarket and shop staff went on strike. What about all of the staff in corner shops, Pubs and takeaways went on strike. What about the lorry drivers, should they all go on strike. The jokingly named ‘Border Force’ haven’t been missed, the railways will soon find that robots will be driving trains and many activities automated. Many public service jobs are not needed but our craven governments do little to sort them out. It is only the NHS that truly delivers benefit but it too needs a complete revamp.

Just saying ‘we want 10% or 20%’ and striking helps no one, especially those who currently do the jobs. It’s time that all public sector jobs had contracts with a no strike clause. For those of us of a certain age, remember when the USA air traffic controllers (who did have a no strike clause) went on strike and Ronald Reagan simply sacked them all, replaced them with military and hired and trained a new workforce. No one wants to see that, but strikes are in themselves selfish acts that will only make for the need and development of automation.

So before decrying or insulting people like Bruce who are looking at this from a more social aspect, you may wish to consider ‘what will happen in the future as a result’…just ask Arthur Scargill…..

 

[Nightman]

Well this is very much a lived experience I'm afraid. Pretty much every day I walk the wife home from work and she shares some dysfunctionality or other with the NHS. Should she be expected to change the entire NHS in order to make it work better? Is that really realistic? I would argue perhaps not. Her old man topped himself out of frustration at being unable to singlehandedly topple the communist regime in CZ. Sometimes you just have to accept that the path of least resistance might not be the one you want. I wouldn't say she's "quiet quitting", but for the sake of her mental health she has most certainly toned down the depth and breadth of her caring about the way things work (and she's very adamant that striking won't materially change matters, which I know goes against your own belief).

I appreciate your post and its honesty.

I think that you and your wife are looking at the situation from a different perspective to mine. Where you say that striking won't make material changes, I assume you mean working conditions and that the salary increase isn't as regarded by you both because perhaps you are coming from a place of financial comfort. A significant payrise will materially change the lives and financial situations of many who do not live the comfortable lives you and your wife enjoy.

Forgive me if I'm incorrect with these assumptions.

 

[Nightman]

Would you be happy if all Tesco, Aldi, other supermarket and shop staff went on strike. What about all of the staff in corner shops, Pubs and takeaways went on strike. What about the lorry drivers, should they all go on strike. The jokingly named ‘Border Force’ haven’t been missed, the railways will soon find that robots will be driving trains and many activities automated. Many public service jobs are not needed but our craven governments do little to sort them out. It is only the NHS that truly delivers benefit but it too needs a complete revamp.

Just saying ‘we want 10% or 20%’ and striking helps no one, especially those who currently do the jobs. It’s time that all public sector jobs had contracts with a no strike clause. For those of us of a certain age, remember when the USA air traffic controllers (who did have a no strike clause) went on strike and Ronald Reagan simply sacked them all, replaced them with military and hired and trained a new workforce. No one wants to see that, but strikes are in themselves selfish acts that will only make for the need and development of automation.

So before decrying or insulting people like Bruce who are looking at this from a more social aspect, you may wish to consider ‘what will happen in the future as a result’…just ask Arthur Scargill…..

Errr, I didn't mention Bruce in my post, so not sure what you're picking up on there?

The jobs that you listed are minimum wage type jobs. The National living allowance was increased by 9.7%, so again I'm not understanding your point and if anything you only serve to prove mine.

 

[woomy]

Would you be happy if all Tesco, Aldi, other supermarket and shop staff went on strike. What about all of the staff in corner shops, Pubs and takeaways went on strike. What about the lorry drivers, should they all go on strike. The jokingly named ‘Border Force’ haven’t been missed, the railways will soon find that robots will be driving trains and many activities automated. Many public service jobs are not needed but our craven governments do little to sort them out. It is only the NHS that truly delivers benefit but it too needs a complete revamp.

Just saying ‘we want 10% or 20%’ and striking helps no one, especially those who currently do the jobs. It’s time that all public sector jobs had contracts with a no strike clause. For those of us of a certain age, remember when the USA air traffic controllers (who did have a no strike clause) went on strike and Ronald Reagan simply sacked them all, replaced them with military and hired and trained a new workforce. No one wants to see that, but strikes are in themselves selfish acts that will only make for the need and development of automation.

So before decrying or insulting people like Bruce who are looking at this from a more social aspect, you may wish to consider ‘what will happen in the future as a result’…just ask Arthur Scargill…..

So you want to strip people of their fundamental right to withdraw labour?
Things could be terrible where they work, holiday rights cut, breaks taken away, pay not even close to keeping up with inflation etc etc etc, and you believe it is right that an employee has no right to withdraw labour in order to ensure fair working conditions?
That sounds like an open house to let an employer do as they please with no comeback. Really?

As for % pay rise request. It's a negotiation, employer goes low, employee goes high, meet somewhere in the middle and everyone is happy. Only the government have forgotten the art of negotiation.

If shop workers wage and conditions were so bad that they they felt the need to strike. Good on them. I can do without going to a shop for a day. No Biggie.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I appreciate your post and its honesty.

I think that you and your wife are looking at the situation from a different perspective to mine. Where you say that striking won't make material changes, I assume you mean working conditions and that the salary increase isn't as regarded by you both because perhaps you are coming from a place of financial comfort. A significant payrise will materially change the lives and financial situations of many who do not live the comfortable lives you and your wife enjoy.

Forgive me if I'm incorrect with these assumptions.

I suppose that's what I mean about the personal circumstances mattering quite a bit. We don't have kids or a car so are able to have a bit spare at the end of the month as a rainy day fund, so while we're by no means wealthy, we're not in a bad way financially. We had to dip into that fund to pay for some pretty expensive dental work she had done recently, but appreciate that it's a good place to be to have some savings to dip into.

Due to the cost of living increases that means we're not adding to that rainy day fund rather than having to dip into it. So sure, she certainly wouldn't complain about getting a pay rise, but through being a community nurse she also has daily exposure to people who really are in a bad way (and much worse off than us, so in that sense we are certainly privileged). Heck, the sister-in-law out here in CZ has two kids in a tiny one bed flat, despite both her and her partner working (she'd have your guts for garters if you ever claimed she was poor though). We're not looking at this from some kind of ivory tower that immunes us from how tough many people have it right now.

 

[catcherintherye]

Is this really the level of comprehension we're at? There are all manner of reasons why someone might need to resort to using a food bank. For instance, their partner might lose their own income, a one-off additional expense may be incurred, household budgeting might be poor, and yes, one's pay may not be enough given the rising cost of living. By assuming that everything is the fault of the latter you're refusing to try and properly understand the nature of the problem, which makes it very difficult to actually find a solution. Of course, if you just want to score points then you probably don't actually care about finding a solution, which given that (some) nurses have been using food banks throughout the pandemic and I suspect I would find zero hand wringing from you up until this point it's perhaps the case.

I'm not being horrible mate, but I've been hand ringing continually, for a very long time about the explosion of foodbanks under this government. So you have me completely wrong.

And that's the point. The fact that you're doubling down on this hateful nonsense is ridiculous. People can budget, but what do you do when the governments policies end up sky rocketed your mortage/rent, dont cap energy prices, cause food price inflation by leaving our biggest trading partner and are not given any sort of wage increase to get even close to that?

I dont know if you were asleep during the Brexit debates. This was all warned of. Its not a coincidence that foodbanks have explodes over the last 12 years, or particularly the last 5 or 6. People havent just coincidentally forgotten how to budget at he very point when continual political miscalculations have been made.

Brexit costs, austerity, and bow interest rates spiked have finally caught up with the populace, but your argument seems to be that by some crazy coincidence it's actually people forgetting how to budget, at exactly that moment. It defies intellectual sense I'm afraid mate.

People who go to work as nurses, keeping us all safe, should not be reliant on begging for charity at foodbanks. It's as simple as that. Its shames every one of us. There were virtually 0 foodbanks when Labour left office (comparatively speaking). You should perhaps go and consider why that is, beyond just thinking everyone forgot how to budget.

And I want to find a solution. The solution is pay people fairly. I have hardly seem any solutions from you. You actively talk against the very thing that resolves this conundrum (to give people enough money to eat) by stating they should collectively organise within the law for a fair deal for a negotiating. Knowing youre negotiating with a party that have handed hundreds of billions to their rich mates from everyone else. They're never going to willingly give anyone a fair deal. And the latest now seems to be budgeting. You wont find any solution, as you are not even in the ballpark of what the problems are.

I'll give you a scenario and you can perhaps explain how negotiating or budgeting help. Nurse takes one 1500 pcm. Her outgoing were 1400 Pcm which she had budgeted for. However has has increased by 400, food by 150, mortgage by 450. How do you want her to budget her 1500 to pay those extra outgoings?

You're obviously the solutions guy, because my idea of paying people fairly is obviously not a solution. So what advice would you give to her on making her budget work? Genuinely intrigued here.

 

[catcherintherye]

Would you be happy if all Tesco, Aldi, other supermarket and shop staff went on strike. What about all of the staff in corner shops, Pubs and takeaways went on strike. What about the lorry drivers, should they all go on strike. The jokingly named ‘Border Force’ haven’t been missed, the railways will soon find that robots will be driving trains and many activities automated. Many public service jobs are not needed but our craven governments do little to sort them out. It is only the NHS that truly delivers benefit but it too needs a complete revamp.

Just saying ‘we want 10% or 20%’ and striking helps no one, especially those who currently do the jobs. It’s time that all public sector jobs had contracts with a no strike clause. For those of us of a certain age, remember when the USA air traffic controllers (who did have a no strike clause) went on strike and Ronald Reagan simply sacked them all, replaced them with military and hired and trained a new workforce. No one wants to see that, but strikes are in themselves selfish acts that will only make for the need and development of automation.

So before decrying or insulting people like Bruce who are looking at this from a more social aspect, you may wish to consider ‘what will happen in the future as a result’…just ask Arthur Scargill…..

People are challenging Bruce because he seems to be bragging that we have 15% of nurses using foodbanks.

Stopping people striking is what they do in dictatorships, so by anyone measure, would be a horrendous idea, that has almost always led to a horrendous society.

What public sector jobs are not needed? Anyone using the public sector can see we need a lot more employment.

Asking for 10% pay, when your bills are going up 15% actually does help, as it helps people afford to eat and not freeze. Surely that is a bare minimum?

Rather than talking about sacking everyone, why dont the government actually get on with getting the economy growing, getting inflation under control, preventing the cronyism that has wasted tens of billions and sorting out a proper trading deal with ou nearest neighbour's?

@Bruce Wayne this is the exact sort of nonsense you are encouraging. Ban striking. Sack the entire public services. Pretend the government havent caused any mess. I cant believe you've thrown decent people like nurses under the bus, for this totalitarian gibberish.

Imagine thinking a nurse, should be taking a lesson a lesson from someone who voted this lot in on selfishness. They say irony is dead. The state of it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm not being horrible mate, but I've been hand ringing continually, for a very long time about the explosion of foodbanks under this government. So you have me completely wrong.

And that's the point. The fact that you're doubling down on this hateful nonsense is ridiculous. People can budget, but what do you do when the governments policies end up sky rocketed your mortage/rent, dont cap energy prices, cause food price inflation by leaving our biggest trading partner and are not given any sort of wage increase to get even close to that?

I dont know if you were asleep during the Brexit debates. This was all warned of. Its not a coincidence that foodbanks have explodes over the last 12 years, or particularly the last 5 or 6. People havent just coincidentally forgotten how to budget at he very point when continual political miscalculations have been made.

Brexit costs, austerity, and bow interest rates spiked have finally caught up with the populace, but your argument seems to be that by some crazy coincidence it's actually people forgetting how to budget, at exactly that moment. It defies intellectual sense I'm afraid mate.

People who go to work as nurses, keeping us all safe, should not be reliant on begging for charity at foodbanks. It's as simple as that. Its shames every one of us. There were virtually 0 foodbanks when Labour left office (comparatively speaking). You should perhaps go and consider why that is, beyond just thinking everyone forgot how to budget.

And I want to find a solution. The solution is pay people fairly. I have hardly seem any solutions from you. You actively talk against the very thing that resolves this conundrum (to give people enough money to eat) by stating they should collectively organise within the law for a fair deal for a negotiating. Knowing youre negotiating with a party that have handed hundreds of billions to their rich mates from everyone else. They're never going to willingly give anyone a fair deal. And the latest now seems to be budgeting. You wont find any solution, as you are not even in the ballpark of what the problems are.

I'll give you a scenario and you can perhaps explain how negotiating or budgeting help. Nurse takes one 1500 pcm. Her outgoing were 1400 Pcm which she had budgeted for. However has has increased by 400, food by 150, mortgage by 450. How do you want her to budget her 1500 to pay those extra outgoings?

You're obviously the solutions guy, because my idea of paying people fairly is obviously not a solution. So what advice would you give to her on making her budget work? Genuinely intrigued here.

I'm just saying that we don't know the circumstances behind those people turning to foodbank. As I mentioned earlier, right now my wife and I are broadly breaking even. If all of my work dried up then we would struggle on her salary. Her individual circumstances wouldn't have changed, but our collective circumstances definitely would (and I doubt even if the RCN got the entirety of the increase they're asking for that would cover the shortfall, so what then?)

As far as I can tell the surveys into food bank usage didn't tell us anything about the circumstances involved other than "they're nurses", which isn't very helpful. For instance, in our hypothetical example a better solution might be to offer income support for the self-employed when their work dries up, which is something I don't believe exists at the moment, or a UBI or something of that nature. For other people such an approach would not be that helpful at all, and cheaper fuel or mortgage relief might be more useful.

This also doesn't address the fundamental issue that most nurses leave the profession not due to their pay but due to stress and/or burnout. You could argue that higher pay will attract more staff, but more staff will equal higher targets so the problem doesn't really go away. The only long-term solution given the demographic transformation in the country is to do far more to reduce demand for healthcare by keeping people healthy rather than curing us when we're sick. Realistically I don't see such a transformation ever happening as the NHS is practically impossible to change.

 

[Cool_Blue]

People are challenging Bruce because he seems to be bragging that we have 15% of nurses using foodbanks.

Stopping people striking is what they do in dictatorships, so by anyone measure, would be a horrendous idea, that has almost always led to a horrendous society.

What public sector jobs are not needed? Anyone using the public sector can see we need a lot more employment.

Asking for 10% pay, when your bills are going up 15% actually does help, as it helps people afford to eat and not freeze. Surely that is a bare minimum?

Rather than talking about sacking everyone, why dont the government actually get on with getting the economy growing, getting inflation under control, preventing the cronyism that has wasted tens of billions and sorting out a proper trading deal with ou nearest neighbour's?

@Bruce Wayne this is the exact sort of nonsense you are encouraging. Ban striking. Sack the entire public services. Pretend the government havent caused any mess. I cant believe you've thrown decent people like nurses under the bus, for this totalitarian gibberish.

Imagine thinking a nurse, should be taking a lesson a lesson from someone who voted this lot in on selfishness. They say irony is dead. The state of it.

Do you think the police should be allowed to strike? Because they cannot, by law.
So you come home and find a burglar inside your house and you call the police. Sorry mate we’re on strike today.
You'd be ok with that?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

People are challenging Bruce because he seems to be bragging that we have 15% of nurses using foodbanks.

Stopping people striking is what they do in dictatorships, so by anyone measure, would be a horrendous idea, that has almost always led to a horrendous society.

What public sector jobs are not needed? Anyone using the public sector can see we need a lot more employment.

Asking for 10% pay, when your bills are going up 15% actually does help, as it helps people afford to eat and not freeze. Surely that is a bare minimum?

Rather than talking about sacking everyone, why dont the government actually get on with getting the economy growing, getting inflation under control, preventing the cronyism that has wasted tens of billions and sorting out a proper trading deal with ou nearest neighbour's?

@Bruce Wayne this is the exact sort of nonsense you are encouraging. Ban striking. Sack the entire public services. Pretend the government havent caused any mess. I cant believe you've thrown decent people like nurses under the bus, for this totalitarian gibberish.

Imagine thinking a nurse, should be taking a lesson a lesson from someone who voted this lot in on selfishness. They say irony is dead. The state of it.

I would have thought it went without saying, but for the sake of clarity, I'm certainly not boasting that 15% of nurses are using foodbanks.

 

[catcherintherye]

Do you think the police should be allowed to strike? Because they cannot, by law.
So you come home and find a burglar inside your house and you call the police. Sorry mate we’re on strike today.
You'd be ok with at?

The police are allowed to strike in other countries, and they seem to have less crime than us.

I dont understand your point though? Just because the police cant strike nobody else should be able to?

And no I wouldnt be happy. But that's pretty much what we have now anyway, because the government are useless.

 

[catcherintherye]

I would have thought it went without saying, but for the sake of clarity, I'm certainly not boasting that 15% of nurses are using foodbanks.

It came across as a brag. I have no idea why you volunteered that point in trying to argue against nurses (or others) not taking a pay cut.

It seemed an odd point to make. We are a wealthy country. We can feed the population. We did that 15 years ago.

 

[Nightman]

I'm just saying that we don't know the circumstances behind those people turning to foodbank.

But we do know why, Bruce. Teachers, Nurses etc, were not needing food banks 5-10 years ago. Nobody working full-time was needing food banks 10-15 years ago. We know this. So we do therefore know why.