Current Affairs Race wars, neo-nazis and other unpleasantness

[magicjuan]

Do you think that's sustainable?

Can I go and live in America permanently if I wanted? Or Canada? I don't think so...

Then we come back to economics. Both the US & UK need migrants to do the grunt work on the farms, proper hard work and because of lack of opportunity at home they go where they're needed. But the opportunity of work is dwarfed by those in need to work through other economic policies and corporate exploitation.
There is no economic forward planning being taken seriously and then not being explained to the masses as a contributor to this migration level so it's just taken as 'illegal'. This becomes that single issue and steps to being labelled racist.
The reason it isn't explained in any other 'sympathetic' way is because it would make people see who is really causing this, how it's being caused and the 'why?'. Always, cui bono? And it's profiteering by corporate capitalism, albeit in its end stage.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

The thing is Dan, we're in a position whereby you can't actually use evidence on these matters because we've been told that we don't need experts any more (when it suits an argument). You come from a criminology background, so you know that people generally assume crime to be much higher than it actually is. I'm sure no one would advocate crafting policy based on what people think the reality is versus what it actually is, yet that's precisely what we're doing with immigration if we listen to the fears that are constantly peddled, as not only do people believe there are far more migrants than there actually are, but they also believe them to be harmful to their job prospects and culture, none of which is true.

Yeah spot on.

Kinda what I meant about how it's exploited.

 

[gonetomorrow]

One half of the world is unhappy with their lot and want to move.
You can't blame them.

 

[Bluerover]

I wonder if it's in part because it become too easy to call people right wing/racist nowadays.

Things like vote Brexit = racist gammon.

Express concern over uncontrolled immigration = racist.

People lash out if they don't feel listened to don't they?

And agitators will exploit that. And scum/opportunist arseholes will jump on.

I have been interested in politics since I was a teenager, and have read widely on all sorts of ideologies.

Personally, as a retired civil servant having served ministers and had dealings with officials from all the main parties in the Republic of Ireland, I have no preference for any. Possibly too cynical of them all, but I always vote.

On your point about labelling, I have a well-thumbed 1979 Penguin edition of 'Fascism - a reader's guide' edited by Walter Lacquer. It contains 12 excellent essays from various academics, but one in particular, by Zeev Sternhell, who was a Senior Lecturer at the Hebrew University Jerusalem, has the following very pertinent lines:

"Fascism has no sound and obvious footing in any particular social class, and it's intellectual origins are in themselves confusing. In its most restricted sense the word fascism refers to the political regime in Italy; at the other end of the scale, the 'fascist' epithet is used, and particularly by left-wingers of various hue, as the term of abuse par excellence, conclusive and unanswerable." (My bolding).

To label all sorts of one's opponents as 'fascist' is unhelpful and misleading, which is why in the Israel thread I said I preferred 'criminal' to describe the actions of Netanyahu and his regime rather than the ubiquitous 'fascist' term.

In this regard I doubt if the little Englanders with their lovely artistic tattoos could converse for ten seconds about what is their actual ideology, other than thuggery, looting, and violence. Oh, and mindless hatred of anyone of a different colour.

Mind you, some of those hard men are so covered in tattoos that it is difficult to discern just what is their own original skin colour.

As for the idiots here in Ireland that have been rioting against asylum seekers and burning proposed accommodation centres, they would also be clueless in any attempt at political debate on ideology.

Again, violence and opportunities to attack the Gardai (police), as well as looting of innocent business people's shops, are all they seem to understand.

I certainly would not label them as Fascists or Anarchists as they wouldn't have a clue what those words really mean.

 

[spectateur]

Do you think that's sustainable?

Can I go and live in America permanently if I wanted? Or Canada? I don't think so...

Why would you want to go to those places?
They too have big problems.

 

[widnesblue]

What we’ve seen in the last few days, has sadly been coming for a long time. People haven’t wanted to know what was coming and especially what’s coming with the youth. It’s no surprise seeing the youth act the way they have by been involved in these riots. Obviously it’s adults involved too but seeing footage of young adults involved isn’t a surprise.

As a country, our “leaders” or those in power are so out of touch with reality and what’s going on in unfunded places. It gives idiots like Tommy Robinson and Farage to preach there hate and because (like it or not) they are good speakers and know how to speak to there targeted audience and get them worked up.

We need to get up to date with how modern people think, how social media works and other ways to prevent things like this from happening.

I’ve got a niece who is mixed race (half Pakistani/half white) her dad who is of Pakistani origin, to see and hear the fear in him yesterday when my sister in law took there baby out yesterday to get her home because he was scared something would happen to her because of the colour of her skin is so sad. Hope everyone whose rioted and attacked people because the colour of there skin or religion get caught and sent to jail. Disgraceful what’s going on.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You're quick to dismiss people who have concern over uncontrolled migration as just being naive fools who are blagged by the media.

Perhaps some are, but;

'The latest official estimates from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) indicate that net migration in the year ending December 2023 stood at 685,000, compared with an updated estimate of 764,000 for the year ending December 2022'

What's the population of Liverpool?

Is it sustainable to add another city the size of Liverpool every year?

See, I have concerns about that. Migration is essential - but it has to be managed IMO and I feel it's too high. But expressing it is a waste of time because you're either a loon, an idiot or a racist. Or all three.

You'll have a situation where people feel they don't have a voice - and people like Trump/Farage exploit it.

That's precisely why we need evidence to guide policymaking, not rhetoric. The actual data says that the majority of those are students, without which a great many of our universities would be bankrupt, as they're subsidising domestic students, who are taught at a loss. So yes, those people are desperately needed. The data also suggests that the majority of those students leave not long after graduating, which I'll leave up to you to ponder whether that's an effective use of talent or not.

As for the argument about "managing" immigration. I always find it funny that these demands are often made by conservatives, who would argue that a centrally planned economy would be communist and inefficient. I wonder what it is that makes them think they can centrally plan a labour market better than Stalin could an economy?

 

[jackyboy]

It's around 5% I think.

I reckon that'll be lower than most other cities in the UK. London, Leeds, Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester. I imagine we're by far one of the lowest. Absolutely embarrassing. Nothing but bullies.

 

[Ferguson1878]

Why would you want to go to those places?
They too have big problems.

Universal studios mate init

 

[GrandOldTeam]

That's precisely why we need evidence to guide policymaking, not rhetoric. The actual data says that the majority of those are students, without which a great many of our universities would be bankrupt, as they're subsidising domestic students, who are taught at a loss. So yes, those people are desperately needed. The data also suggests that the majority of those students leave not long after graduating, which I'll leave up to you to ponder whether that's an effective use of talent or not.

As for the argument about "managing" immigration. I always find it funny that these demands are often made by conservatives, who would argue that a centrally planned economy would be communist and inefficient. I wonder what it is that makes them think they can centrally plan a labour market better than Stalin could an economy?

Still not convinced it's sustainable.

 

[Bluerover]

When America sneezes, we catch a cold.

We're just a few years behind. As an example - the level of debate around trans - and identity politics.

It's no good

Trump type will end up here.

BJ was not far off.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Do you think that's sustainable?

Can I go and live in America permanently if I wanted? Or Canada? I don't think so...

Happy to run with this thought experiment Dan. You have a fairly settled life in Yorkshire. What would prompt you to uproot yourself and go and live in America or Canada? Would you, for instance, go if you knew nobody there? Would you go if you didn't have a job to go to (or study, ie a purpose for going)? Would you go without first arranging somewhere to stay? Would you go without considering how you might support yourself and your family?

You may correct me, but I "suspect" you'd do all of those things, yet we seem to assume people coming here do none of those things and are therefore just a blight on the country.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Happy to run with this thought experiment Dan. You have a fairly settled life in Yorkshire. What would prompt you to uproot yourself and go and live in America or Canada? Would you, for instance, go if you knew nobody there? Would you go if you didn't have a job to go to (or study, ie a purpose for going)? Would you go without first arranging somewhere to stay? Would you go without considering how you might support yourself and your family?

You may correct me, but I "suspect" you'd do all of those things, yet we seem to assume people coming here do none of those things and are therefore just a blight on the country.

I can't mate so it doesn't matter. I wouldn't be eligible to live permanently in the US.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Genuine question: are Dan's figures accurate or not?

As I've explained, the vast majority of those people are students. It's funny. Last year we also had around 8 million more overseas tourists come to the country compared to the year before. I've yet to see anyone complaining that there's an additional army the size of London invading the country each year, whatever are we to do?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Still not convinced it's sustainable.

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And most of those are students. There are around 700,000 overseas students enrolled at UK universities, which represents around a quarter of the total student body. I mean we "could" limit their numbers, and start massively increasing tuition fees for domestic students. I can't see that going down well, can you?