Net spend over 5 years

[knightfall]

I'd love to see an investor come into our great club. However, although I'd love to have the case, I'd prefer it not to be an abramovic/saudi type deal, more of a randy lerner at villa type situation

 

[Robin Sisland]

Assuming the sources on the chart are really its sources, then I would think the Times, Premierleague.com and Sportinglife.com had a shrewd idea of what is going on. I'm not saying they are perfect, but I would accept their judgment to a degree. Put it this way, I would be surprised if the findings weren't roughly a reflection of the actual case.

d'oh - didn't notice the sources listed at the bottom. I need to read more slowly.
They are all at best secondary sources though. Whoever put the table together has scoured online reports and put together a list. Given that most clubs are adept at planting stories 'spinning' a line they want to push and given the way stories get picked up and repeated I'm a bit wary of reading too much into that table. I guess it gives a rough idea but there's also the chance that some figures could be less accurate.

Just been scouring the Arsenal website to see if they have a list of transfers like ours ...couldn't find one. Odd that.

 

[Nebbiolo]

d'oh - didn't notice the sources listed at the bottom. I need to read more slowly.
They are all at best secondary sources though. Whoever put the table together has scoured online reports and put together a list. Given that most clubs are adept at planting stories 'spinning' a line they want to push and given the way stories get picked up and repeated I'm a bit wary of reading too much into that table. I guess it gives a rough idea but there's also the chance that some figures could be less accurate.

Just been scouring the Arsenal website to see if they have a list of transfers like ours ...couldn't find one. Odd that.

Agree with that, Robin. I've started to become a little bit annoyed by the whole "undisclosed" business actually. It seems our club has taken to it like a duck to water. I wonder what the club is trying to hide when it doesn't have the courage to publish actual fees paid for a player.

But what can you do about it? If we want to have any idea of spending on transfers the best we can hope for, is if reasonably reliable media sources at least have a stab at compiling something, which is based on what they believe is approximately true.

 

[SuitsBlue]

Here is a question, lets say the club can find moyes an extra 10 mill a season do you want to see him go for high profile signings or play closer to form and look to pick up cahills, lescotts, and jagielkas for reasonable sums?

do we want moyes to gamble on potentially a better class of player or would we be happy to see a handful more of the baines and pienaar types brought in as has been the norm so far? is there more to gain when there is more at stake? darren bent 18 mill? marcus bent 450k!!! whats the position you want moyes to address this summer???

 

[Robin Sisland]

Agree with that, Robin. I've started to become a little bit annoyed by the whole "undisclosed" business actually. It seems our club has taken to it like a duck to water. I wonder what the club is trying to hide when it doesn't have the courage to publish actual fees paid for a player.

But what can you do about it? If we want to have any idea of spending on transfers the best we can hope for, is if reasonably reliable media sources at least have a stab at compiling something, which is based on what they believe is approximately true.

You're right - not much we can do. Private companies are under no obligation to reveal the details of their capital expendeture and football clubs are possibly unique in that their 'customers' expect them to.

But then they are also unique in that the bulk of their income doesn't come from the customers themselves but from the sale of rights to televise events which the customers have paid (through the nose) to attend, and at which their attendence is crucial to making the TV rights marketable..
You do have to wonder what lurks behind the 'undisclosed' and for that matter what the clubs would do if the punters got fed up with all the off-field malarchy and stopped paying to attend the matches.

 

[Robin Sisland]

Here is a question, lets say the club can find moyes an extra 10 mill a season do you want to see him go for high profile signings or play closer to form and look to pick up cahills, lescotts, and jagielkas for reasonable sums?

On the left: Cahill, Lescott, Jagielka, Piennar

On the right: Beattie, Johnson, Koldrup, VDM

No contest is it?

 

[Nebbiolo]

Here is a question, lets say the club can find moyes an extra 10 mill a season do you want to see him go for high profile signings or play closer to form and look to pick up cahills, lescotts, and jagielkas for reasonable sums?

do we want moyes to gamble on potentially a better class of player or would we be happy to see a handful more of the baines and pienaar types brought in as has been the norm so far? is there more to gain when there is more at stake? darren bent 18 mill? marcus bent 450k!!! whats the position you want moyes to address this summer???

I suppose you would expect a bit of both. For example, spending £12m or Yakubu character seems good business. I would argue a similar amount on Downing would equally be a good deal. But also raiding the Championship or newly relegated teams for prospective talent is probably a very good move. If you look at our first team, I think it is probably worth double what Moyes paid for it. In theory it is better to pay half-price rather than full-price.

Even regarding the players Robin Sisland mentioned (Beattie, Kroldrup, VDM, Johnson) we sold them all on, with the exception of VDM, so didn't really lose out financially. I think you've got to hand some praise to Moyes for getting some excellent talent on a shoestring budget.

 

[kenada_blue]

So you'd rather Moyes stay cash strapped and go to the wire to bag bargins because it makes him more astute in his dealings? You wouldnt like him to have flexibility? Flexability, that extra £5mill even, would've bagged us a Moutinho for eg.

You have fans on one side saying - we just dont have the squad and that extra quality to jump a few places in the league. The other side you have fans saying - Moyes dont need money because the way the club is makes him find those gems.

I dont buy that. And as the years role on, when average players who cost £2million a year or 2 ago cost £5million now, those gems are going to be few and far between, and even then be more than bagging a Cahill or Arteta.

Its not about throwing money at him, its making sure he's not sweating on deadline day to buy players, that he can buy comfortably.

As for the players mentioned - Johnson had a great 1st season, scored important goals, but was out done by a better player (Yak) who suited the system more. Dunno what happened to Koldrup but he seems to be fine where he's at now. VDM's just a mess who cant seem to redeem himself under Moyes. And Beattie is the just the player he is now, a lower Premiership team striker.

And to be fair I still wouldnt mind having AJ and Beattie at the club, especially in our current striker crisis.

 

[Nebbiolo]

So you'd rather Moyes stay cash strapped and go to the wire to bag bargins because it makes him more astute in his dealings? You wouldnt like him to have flexibility? Flexability, that extra £5mill even, would've bagged us a Moutinho for eg.

You have fans on one side saying - we just dont have the squad and that extra quality to jump a few places in the league. The other side you have fans saying - Moyes dont need money because the way the club is makes him find those gems.

I dont buy that. And as the years role on, when average players who cost £2million a year or 2 ago cost £5million now, those gems are going to be few and far between, and even then be more than bagging a Cahill or Arteta.

Its not about throwing money at him, its making sure he's not sweating on deadline day to buy players, that he can buy comfortably.

As for the players mentioned - Johnson had a great 1st season, scored important goals, but was out done by a better player (Yak) who suited the system more. Dunno what happened to Koldrup but he seems to be fine where he's at now. VDM's just a mess who cant seem to redeem himself under Moyes. And Beattie is the just the player he is now, a lower Premiership team striker.

And to be fair I still wouldnt mind having AJ and Beattie at the club, especially in our current striker crisis.

No mate, I didn't say that. I said that if we had a specific amount of money, I would like Moyes to purchase proven players like Downing as well as bring in players that seem to have potential. A bit of both is the key to building a team. What I pointed out was that we have a number of men at the club that are worth far more than Moyes paid for them. In other words, we assembled a class team for a reasonable sum, That has got be better than than assembling the same class team for twice the price, or assembling half a class team for the same price.

 

[kenada_blue]

Oh definately. I'd like that too, that's why I mentioned a flexable amount of cash would be good for Moyes.

I was pointing out more of the "Moyes works best within in tight restrictions" and I agree...a few years back. But in the current transfer climate, players price increase no matter how good they are. Anton Ferdinand to Sunderland £8mill or so. AJ to Fulham - £10million or so. That's the market today. Especially when we're looking for top 4 rather than getting out of the bottom 4.

 

[Neiler]

I suppose you would expect a bit of both. For example, spending £12m or Yakubu character seems good business. I would argue a similar amount on Downing would equally be a good deal. But also raiding the Championship or newly relegated teams for prospective talent is probably a very good move. If you look at our first team, I think it is probably worth double what Moyes paid for it. In theory it is better to pay half-price rather than full-price.

Even regarding the players Robin Sisland mentioned (Beattie, Kroldrup, VDM, Johnson) we sold them all on, with the exception of VDM, so didn't really lose out financially. I think you've got to hand some praise to Moyes for getting some excellent talent on a shoestring budget.

About four or five times id say mate. Personaly i think hes added about 50-60 mill on the value of the club.

 

[Nebbiolo]

About four or five times id say mate. Personaly i think hes added about 50-60 mill on the value of the club.

It's difficult to judge, but I agree that he's certainly added value to the club.

Lescott, Arteta, Cahill, Jagielka, Pienaar and Howard cost us around £18m. I wonder how much they might be valued at today? :huh:

 

[Robin Sisland]

It's difficult to judge, but I agree that he's certainly added value to the club.

Lescott, Arteta, Cahill, Jagielka, Pienaar and Howard cost us around £18m. I wonder how much they might be valued at today? :huh:

Conservatively I'd say between £8m-£12m each depending on who needed to fill what position and who else was available. So £48m-£72m overall.

The only problem with making valuations like that is that they're only 'real' if you're planning on selling the players. Which in turn only makes sense if you already have someone else who can do the same job just as well and/or something sensible to do with the cash - eg fill a gap with someone good you have lined up. Which ideally wouldn't happen too often...I'd desperately hate to see us go down the FSW route of fielding a new team every 18 months.

A better valuation system might be to try and guess what sort of positions we'd have achieved had we continued fielding players like (say) Kilbane, Bent, Simonson, Wright, Simple Simon, Frank the wank Jeffers or the disinterested Graveson who returned to us last season, then calculate how many league positions and how much extra TV money our six bargains have already netted us. And how much extra they'll bring us over the five or six years more we can realistically expect to get out of them.