Martinez Out: Post Stoke poll

[steken1]

The situation we currently have, for those who are old enough to remember reminds me of Joe Royle in 1996-7.

There is no doubt Royle had slightly lost the plot. His big signings (Kanchelskis particularly) had underperformed and wanted away. We have injuries to key players like Fergusan, Southall in goal had lost all form and confidence of those in front of him (rather like Howard today, a situation only solved when we binned him the following December).

We had dropped like a stone that season. It seemed almost impossible for us to be considering relegation and while we never looked in serious trouble it was always an outside possibility (similar to this season).

Royle had lost the plot, the local media had turned and he had become paranoid.

Like Martinez now, in the previous season(s) he had done a brilliant job. We looked a top team ready to challenge anyone. Yet bizarrely it all went wrong very quickly. Injuries and lack of form led to this, not helped by the local media.

Of course history tells us we (sort of) got rid of Royle. My worry about doing the same with Martinez is we have the same results. Getting rid of Royle didn't reverse the anomie that surrounded the club. The following season we went into the final game of the season needing other sides to do us a favour to stay up.

Had it not been for Kevin Campbell there's little doubt we'd have been relegated the season after. We all know the relegation problems we faced. The point I make, was getting rid of Royle didn't solve the problems, it further exacerbated them.

If we compare to Moyes in 2004, who had "lost the dressing room" he was given support. From the following 9 years we finished below 8th once, and never below 11th.

When I read the Royle book back what hit me was not that it was a man out of his depth. It was that he was a man who needed a bit of a break and a bit of support and who had become overly defensive and a little paranoid.
There was nothing that a close season away from the day to day pressures of preparing for matches to re-assess couldn't have solved (as it did with Moyes and I think will for Martinez).

Royle wanted to Bring Flo in for just over a million pounds. What a signing he could have been! He hadn't become a bad manager. The saddest thing of the late 90's were we were so close to being a top team. People were tipping us to challenge to win the league as Dark horses.

We needed a goalkeeper and a centre half, and possibly a partner for Fergusan (see Flo). We had a lot of talented young players coming through. Royle had already Blooded O'Connor and in a steady winning environment and Royle's tutelage I doubt the likes of Jeffers, Cadamateri, Dunne, Ball etc would have been allowed to squander their abilities.

The same is true now. I worry that hitting the sack button will not only compound our problems, but will stunt the development of our young players.

We live in a world of immediate gratification. Easy Solutions, often being the most radical ones. What is needed to me, is a bit of back to the drawing board, reassessment from Martinez. Moving 3-4 players on bringing a couple in and starting afresh next season.

As good a post as you will read.

 

[bicycleheader]

I get it, you are going to keep supporting the manager and the people who employed him no matter how strong the head winds are in the hope that it will turn one day. Nothing wrong with that in my book but I think in my opinion to support that position is both loyal and deluded given the performance and issues on and off the pitch this season.

well...no, not really. i just took umbrage with a certain point about football being only about winning.

I am supporting the manager right now because I believe patience is needed. Thats all. I could be wrong ultimately. We will all see I guess.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

The bottom line is that the manager shouldn't be waffling on about his supposed 'style' of football, when we're in the midst of a relegation fight ffs.

He should be saying it's not good enough and we need to get back to winning games - the end.

To hear him waffling on about winning pots without style causing it's own problems in the context of where we are TODAY, it makes him sound completely delusional to me.

He should have one objective when it comes to the PL, getting some bleeding points on the board, and until we've got 35/36 in the bag, we can play like Pulis's Stoke for all I care.

 

[paulbefc]

We live in a world of immediate gratification. Easy Solutions, often being the most radical ones. What is needed to me, is a bit of back to the drawing board, reassessment from Martinez. Moving 3-4 players on bringing a couple in and starting afresh next season.

You're absolutely spot on here.

The rest of the post was great too.

 

[D410]

well...no, not really. i just took umbrage with a certain point about football being only about winning.

I am supporting the manager right now because I believe patience is needed. Thats all. I could be wrong ultimately. We will all see I guess.

Not winning gets you the sack...Every manager knows that. I think your views on style over substance are admirable but sadly they are not on the radar of £5B industry.

 

[meagher94]

Problem with that statement davek is playing these same tactics he CANT hit those heights. Where his tactics worked last season taking people by suprise, they have been our downfall this year.

Although i do believe last year his attacking football spin on a moyes drilled team was one of the main reasons for the excellent season.

Everton were not what teams expected last season. Everton are exactly what teams expect this season.

No mate. I hate this idea.

I have to defend Moyes here. People seem to be changing history with this guy. Whilst his football could be dire at times, let's not forget he operated most of the time with a hand tied behind his back. He had us top 4-8 in all but 1 or 2 seasons. And at times with the right players had us playing great football. He was no tony pullis ffs.

If you want Moyes back mate, just say.

To suggest last season was down to some weird blend of Moyes' solidity and Martinez's attacking flair is ludicrous in my opinion. Seen quite a few people say that and I don't understand the logic. Just seems like a nice way to discredit Martinez for what he did last season.

The players bought into Martinez's way of playing and it worked. Moyes had nothing to do with it.

 

[bicycleheader]

It's not

It's about winning plain and simple

If it wasn't we wouldn't have knock out cup competitions and points for winning

i hate being pedantic. but we are talking about football being about more than just winning. On the flipside I am not saying it is only about style.

There is cups and points because it is a big part of the sport, but it´s not 100%.

Theres many different shades and types of success in there that don´t result in trophies. Two of the most heralded generations of footballers didn´t win a thing - Holland in the 70s and Brasil in the 80s. They are a big part of football history. They didn´t win anything.

I would watch some random teams down the years just to watch certain players. It didn´t matter to me if the team was winning trophies.

Saying you are happiest when its 5pm and Everton have won, doesn´t show that this sport is just about winning. It just shows that it appears to be the be all and end all of what you want from sport. It wouldn´t be for me, and it wouldn´t be for many many fans.

 

[bicycleheader]

Not winning gets you the sack...Every manager knows that. I think your views on style over substance are admirable but sadly they are not on the radar of £5B industry.

they are not on their radar....the industry in general. i agree

they are on the radar of the two biggest clubs in Spain, and possibly the two biggest clubs in the sport though.

again....I am just saying winning isn´t 100%. from player to player, fan to fan or club to club the mixture of importance between winning and style will vary but it will not always be 100% which I think some people are suggesting.

 

[paulbefc]

Why is "deluded" the go to word for trying to disparage perfectly fair and logical points on here?

Knock it on the head. It makes the person saying it sound stupid.

 

[bicycleheader]

But Mate it is business one cannot get away from that. The players are just like the ground staff, employees albeit paid more. Just like any other business doing well depends on results, like a car maker selling cars, more sold the better that is a result.

You may decry it as modern football but 'fraid this the name of the game. So much depends on getting it right, Sponsorship, Merchandise sales, Increasing your fan base home and abroad, there is no getting away from it. If the club (business) is not doing well many of the money spinning factors deteriorate Vicious circle but that is it, for me no room for sentimentality.

gotta run now, but I disagree. there are plenty of players and managers in the game who treat it as more than just a results business. same way I would, and many other fans.

its the beautiful game, always will be. thats more important than the money and success for me even if ultimately that is getting squeezed out.

 

[Goat]

Would you rather :

1. Win 1-0 every game and be bored for 90minutes
or
2. Lose every game, whilst watching a remake of 1970 Brazil

 

[Seanjd]

Would you rather :

1. Win 1-0 every game and be bored for 90minutes
or
2. Lose every game, whilst watching a remake of 1970 Brazil

Top one any day.

 

[Brownie]

I would plump for option 2.

 

[nsno-chris]

i hate being pedantic. but we are talking about football being about more than just winning. On the flipside I am not saying it is only about style.

There is cups and points because it is a big part of the sport, but it´s not 100%.

Theres many different shades and types of success in there that don´t result in trophies. Two of the most heralded generations of footballers didn´t win a thing - Holland in the 70s and Brasil in the 80s. They are a big part of football history. They didn´t win anything.

I would watch some random teams down the years just to watch certain players. It didn´t matter to me if the team was winning trophies.

Saying you are happiest when its 5pm and Everton have won, doesn´t show that this sport is just about winning. It just shows that it appears to be the be all and end all of what you want from sport. It wouldn´t be for me, and it wouldn´t be for many many fans.

What are you going on about.

What has you watching random teams got to do with Everton winning; I watch other teams as well and don't give a monkeys arse if they win or loose.

Football is about winning, everything else comes second.

And it wasn't me who said it about 5pm, it was goat.

In fact do a poll and gauge people's opinion because it's getting boring now

 

[Goat]

I would plump for option 2.

Thats to be expected Browns.