Martinez Out: Post Stoke poll

[Seanjd]

That's true, but you can only learn if there is a willingness to do so. I'm not sure if Martinez even sees there is a problem, he's fallen in to the Moyes trap of over-stating how good our chances in games are and blaming missing them on losing games.

Yeah, stick or twist really isn't it. When Liverpool were struggling at the start if the season Brenda twisted and it worked eventually. In the position Martinez is in at this moment of time, a twist might be seen as a huge gamble. I'm sure he thinks he can gain the required points with his current system.

 

[D410]

The situation we currently have, for those who are old enough to remember reminds me of Joe Royle in 1996-7.

There is no doubt Royle had slightly lost the plot. His big signings (Kanchelskis particularly) had underperformed and wanted away. We have injuries to key players like Fergusan, Southall in goal had lost all form and confidence of those in front of him (rather like Howard today, a situation only solved when we binned him the following December).

We had dropped like a stone that season. It seemed almost impossible for us to be considering relegation and while we never looked in serious trouble it was always an outside possibility (similar to this season).

Royle had lost the plot, the local media had turned and he had become paranoid.

Like Martinez now, in the previous season(s) he had done a brilliant job. We looked a top team ready to challenge anyone. Yet bizarrely it all went wrong very quickly. Injuries and lack of form led to this, not helped by the local media.

Of course history tells us we (sort of) got rid of Royle. My worry about doing the same with Martinez is we have the same results. Getting rid of Royle didn't reverse the anomie that surrounded the club. The following season we went into the final game of the season needing other sides to do us a favour to stay up.

Had it not been for Kevin Campbell there's little doubt we'd have been relegated the season after. We all know the relegation problems we faced. The point I make, was getting rid of Royle didn't solve the problems, it further exacerbated them.

If we compare to Moyes in 2004, who had "lost the dressing room" he was given support. From the following 9 years we finished below 8th once, and never below 11th.

When I read the Royle book back what hit me was not that it was a man out of his depth. It was that he was a man who needed a bit of a break and a bit of support and who had become overly defensive and a little paranoid.
There was nothing that a close season away from the day to day pressures of preparing for matches to re-assess couldn't have solved (as it did with Moyes and I think will for Martinez).

Royle wanted to Bring Flo in for just over a million pounds. What a signing he could have been! He hadn't become a bad manager. The saddest thing of the late 90's were we were so close to being a top team. People were tipping us to challenge to win the league as Dark horses.

We needed a goalkeeper and a centre half, and possibly a partner for Fergusan (see Flo). We had a lot of talented young players coming through. Royle had already Blooded O'Connor and in a steady winning environment and Royle's tutelage I doubt the likes of Jeffers, Cadamateri, Dunne, Ball etc would have been allowed to squander their abilities.

The same is true now. I worry that hitting the sack button will not only compound our problems, but will stunt the development of our young players.

We live in a world of immediate gratification. Easy Solutions, often being the most radical ones. What is needed to me, is a bit of back to the drawing board, reassessment from Martinez. Moving 3-4 players on bringing a couple in and starting afresh next season.

I can go back to Kendall MK1 and I don,t see an Oxford moment in this manager. We live in a world of results (winners and losers) nothing more nothing less, he is very lucky to still have a job based on his performance from pre-season to now.

 

[davek]

Yep. That's why I just can't make my mind up. It's all about weighing up the odds, and I must admit, Martinez's relegation battle history (albeit with Wigan) doesn't fill me with confidence. Can he I still that battling sentiment in the team? I don't know.

That's the biggest thing spooking people. I can understand that, but when you look at this season dispassionately you have to say that the route to safety is a simple one and quickly takes us ther. Of course, whether Martinez picks it up from there and makes sure this is a one off is unwritten and cant be known...then again, a new arrival would present us exactly with the unknown...and at least with Martinez we know he defo CAN hit the heights.

It's a no brainer supporting Martinez at this point.

 

[davek]

The situation we currently have, for those who are old enough to remember reminds me of Joe Royle in 1996-7.

There is no doubt Royle had slightly lost the plot. His big signings (Kanchelskis particularly) had underperformed and wanted away. We have injuries to key players like Fergusan, Southall in goal had lost all form and confidence of those in front of him (rather like Howard today, a situation only solved when we binned him the following December).

We had dropped like a stone that season. It seemed almost impossible for us to be considering relegation and while we never looked in serious trouble it was always an outside possibility (similar to this season).

Royle had lost the plot, the local media had turned and he had become paranoid.

Like Martinez now, in the previous season(s) he had done a brilliant job. We looked a top team ready to challenge anyone. Yet bizarrely it all went wrong very quickly. Injuries and lack of form led to this, not helped by the local media.

Of course history tells us we (sort of) got rid of Royle. My worry about doing the same with Martinez is we have the same results. Getting rid of Royle didn't reverse the anomie that surrounded the club. The following season we went into the final game of the season needing other sides to do us a favour to stay up.

Had it not been for Kevin Campbell there's little doubt we'd have been relegated the season after. We all know the relegation problems we faced. The point I make, was getting rid of Royle didn't solve the problems, it further exacerbated them.

If we compare to Moyes in 2004, who had "lost the dressing room" he was given support. From the following 9 years we finished below 8th once, and never below 11th.

When I read the Royle book back what hit me was not that it was a man out of his depth. It was that he was a man who needed a bit of a break and a bit of support and who had become overly defensive and a little paranoid.
There was nothing that a close season away from the day to day pressures of preparing for matches to re-assess couldn't have solved (as it did with Moyes and I think will for Martinez).

Royle wanted to Bring Flo in for just over a million pounds. What a signing he could have been! He hadn't become a bad manager. The saddest thing of the late 90's were we were so close to being a top team. People were tipping us to challenge to win the league as Dark horses.

We needed a goalkeeper and a centre half, and possibly a partner for Fergusan (see Flo). We had a lot of talented young players coming through. Royle had already Blooded O'Connor and in a steady winning environment and Royle's tutelage I doubt the likes of Jeffers, Cadamateri, Dunne, Ball etc would have been allowed to squander their abilities.

The same is true now. I worry that hitting the sack button will not only compound our problems, but will stunt the development of our young players.

We live in a world of immediate gratification. Easy Solutions, often being the most radical ones. What is needed to me, is a bit of back to the drawing board, reassessment from Martinez. Moving 3-4 players on bringing a couple in and starting afresh next season.

Great post mate.

 

[D410]

This is why I would rather move on to another manager before next season. I have no coffidence he will be any better next season. Why? Because I seriously doubt he will or is capable of changing his ways.

Teams know how to play against him. It will ALWAYS cause us issues. His philosophy is more important to him than success.

A very dangerous man to have in charge of a football club imo.

Thanks for the brilliant season. (Which was still not as good as moyes best 4th btw) and good luck with your future endeavours.

I could be wrong but I think the club would keep him on if he finished above the drop zone by a single goal. It,s not the standards we should be aiming for but then I,m not the owner.

 

[D410]

That's the biggest thing spooking people. I can understand that, but when you look at this season dispassionately you have to say that the route to safety is a simple one and quickly takes us ther. Of course, whether Martinez picks it up from there and makes sure this is a one off is unwritten and cant be known...then again, a new arrival would present us exactly with the unknown...and at least with Martinez we know he defo CAN hit the heights.

It's a no brainer supporting Martinez at this point.

I don,t think the club have a clue when it comes to picking a manager based on the last 20 years.

Zero Trophy's.

 

[bicycleheader]

Because football is about winning, the entire point about it is to win trophies so......

L

O

L

Don´t be childish, you are acting as if you aren´t aware that for many many fans football is definitely more than about winning. style matters....a lot...and in some of the biggest clubs it´s a priority.

Barça and Madrid are two of the biggest, if not the biggest clubs in football and they definitely have the attitude that football is about more than winning. That there is a certain way to go about it.

I can understand if other people disagree with this, but it´s a bit silly acting as if it´s complete nonsense when if you have any knowledge of the game itself rather than just your own clubs results week in week out, you will know it is an extremely common view held by many players/managers/journalists/fans throughout the history of the game.

I can tell you know your football, so I think you are just being facetious on this to back up your criticism of our current boss.

 

[Christiffa25]

That's the biggest thing spooking people. I can understand that, but when you look at this season dispassionately you have to say that the route to safety is a simple one and quickly takes us ther. Of course, whether Martinez picks it up from there and makes sure this is a one off is unwritten and cant be known...then again, a new arrival would present us exactly with the unknown...and at least with Martinez we know he defo CAN hit the heights.

It's a no brainer supporting Martinez at this point.

Problem with that statement davek is playing these same tactics he CANT hit those heights. Where his tactics worked last season taking people by suprise, they have been our downfall this year.

Although i do believe last year his attacking football spin on a moyes drilled team was one of the main reasons for the excellent season.

Everton were not what teams expected last season. Everton are exactly what teams expect this season.

 

[Toffeelover]

That's the biggest thing spooking people. I can understand that, but when you look at this season dispassionately you have to say that the route to safety is a simple one and quickly takes us ther. Of course, whether Martinez picks it up from there and makes sure this is a one off is unwritten and cant be known...then again, a new arrival would present us exactly with the unknown...and at least with Martinez we know he defo CAN hit the heights.

It's a no brainer supporting Martinez at this point.

By the same token Dave we know he can defo hit the lows!

 

[Little Ralphy]

That's the biggest thing spooking people. I can understand that, but when you look at this season dispassionately you have to say that the route to safety is a simple one and quickly takes us ther. Of course, whether Martinez picks it up from there and makes sure this is a one off is unwritten and cant be known...then again, a new arrival would present us exactly with the unknown...and at least with Martinez we know he defo CAN hit the heights.

It's a no brainer supporting Martinez at this point.

But if you look at the season dispassionately you have to wonder why we are even down there thinking about relegation.

Was last season Martinez' blip? Due in large part to a positive response from a talented group of players to a fresh and more positive outlook in their ability as opposed to a very negative, work orientated one of the past?

People point at individual mistakes being the problem, but if you take so many chances with players not capable of successfully completing them, then you are going to get a high number of mistakes.

Similarly if you play with little width/creativity and only 2 players with any kind of goal return, then you are going to struggle to score goals.

We seem to have developed in to a side capable of keeping possession around the half way line and in our own half, unable to progress forward, only to lose the ball in situations favourable to our opponents.

 

[Christiffa25]

Don´t be childish, you are acting as if you aren´t aware that for many many fans football is definitely more than about winning. style matters....a lot...and in some of the biggest clubs it´s a priority.

Barça and Madrid are two of the biggest, if not the biggest clubs in football and they definitely have the attitude that football is about more than winning. That their is a certain way to go about it.

I can understand if other people disagree with this, but it´s a bit silly acting as if it´s complete nonsense when if you have any knowledge of the game itself rather than just your own clubs results week in week out, you will know it is an extremely common view held by many players/managers/journalists/fans throughout the history of the game.

I can tell you know your football, so I think you are just being facetious on this to back up your criticism of our current boss.

No barca and real take winning for granted. That's the minimum, the style they do it in defines whether a manager stays.

They certainly DONT put style before winning. They are both together mandatory. You fail at either one your out on your ass!!

 

[D410]

Don´t be childish, you are acting as if you aren´t aware that for many many fans football is definitely more than about winning. style matters....a lot...and in some of the biggest clubs it´s a priority.

Barça and Madrid are two of the biggest, if not the biggest clubs in football and they definitely have the attitude that football is about more than winning. That there is a certain way to go about it.

I can understand if other people disagree with this, but it´s a bit silly acting as if it´s complete nonsense when if you have any knowledge of the game itself rather than just your own clubs results week in week out, you will know it is an extremely common view held by many players/managers/journalists/fans throughout the history of the game.

I can tell you know your football, so I think you are just being facetious on this to back up your criticism of our current boss.

We enter competitions each season and there are no pots for style.

 

[bicycleheader]

No barca and real take winning for granted. That's the minimum, the style they do it in defines whether a manager stays.

They certainly DONT put style before winning. They are both together mandatory. You fail at either one your out on your ass!!

but I didn´t say they put style before winning, even though I think sacking Capello suggests they do in part.

I think football is about more than just winning, and I think the example of the two big clubs shows I wouldn´t be alone in that.

Even though I don´t think I should have to explain this, I am amazed if anybody is not even aware that is a pretty common belief.

 

[davek]

But if you look at the season dispassionately you have to wonder why we are even down there thinking about relegation.
Was last season Martinez' blip? Due in large part to a positive response from a talented group of players to a fresh and more positive outlook in their ability as opposed to a very negative, work orientated one of the past?

People point at individual mistakes being the problem, but if you take so many chances with players not capable of successfully completing them, then you are going to get a high number of mistakes.

Similarly if you play with little width/creativity and only 2 players with any kind of goal return, then you are going to struggle to score goals.

We seem to have developed in to a side capable of keeping possession around the half way line and in our own half, unable to progress forward, only to lose the ball in situations favourable to our opponents.

That's exactly the problem and one I've underlined myself all through this season: he failed to start the heavy lifting last summer on squad reconstruction to take us away from the Moyes old guard who aren't up to what he requires. He was very complacent and that has come back to haunt him and us. But that's a personnel issue, not a systemic failure and proof his methods are unsound.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Winning with style is a 'nice to have', but winning is the goal.

Not that our current brand of football has much style anyway, it's been largely dull as dishwater this season.