Surely any fan would want is best for the club?
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Surely any fan would want is best for the club?
Well, there's unlikely to be a moment where all fans have to decide in unison, where fans will have a make or break decision. Rather, as you point out in the United case, a buyer would have to slowly increase his share in the club, buying out one shareholder at a time until he had 90%.
So in order to start the process, the buyer would want to be sure that he'd be sucessful - he wouldn't want to be caught owning 51% of the shares in a club or whatever, because that then becomes very hard for him to sell at maximum value. So the problem is more that the buyer can't be SURE that enough fans would want to do the "right thing for the club". After all, wouldn't a lot of fans want to hold onto their shares so they can hold the new owner to account? And if their share was likely to massively increase in value if the new owner pumped money into the club...well, a lot more might not sell.
So this means that the current board, but more importanly Bill Kenwright has made it difficult for anybody to hold 100% of the shares?
Im sure there must be an easier way, whats the break down of shares? Do you know?
Im sure there must be an easier way, whats the break down of shares? Do you know?
No, the minority shares predate Kenwright.
I saw a brief summary of the shareholdings the other day, but for the life of me I can't remember where.
Right, so not only do we need a very rich billionare, we need somebody with the patience to go around and buy up shares from 100s, possibly 1000s on shareholders. No wonder Bill is looking 24/7. If I was him I would stop.
So anyway, back to investment. Why cant the major shareholders just sell their shares then?
So anyway, back to investment. Why cant the major shareholders just sell their shares then?
Google found this on Toffeeweb:
Shares in Everton FC Co Ltd are closely held. They are privately traded and do not often become available, rare transactions generally being through the club's brokers, Blankstone Sington (0151 707 1707). There is no official share price, so the cost of shares is governed by how much one is prepared to sell or pay for them, with the price dropping significantly for bulk lots. Individual shares are currently changing hands for somewhere in the range of £1,250 to £1,500. Everton's annual accounts include a listing of share ownership at Board level. This was the situation at the end of May 2006:
Bill Kenwright 8,754 Shares
Robert Earl 7,845 Shares
John Woods 6,622 Shares
Keith Wyness 0 Shares
Interestingly, the Articles of Association used to require that each director hold at least 3 shares in The Company... Paul and Anita Greg left the Board after selling their shares to Robert Earl in 2006. Sir Philip Carter (721 Shares), Keith Tamlin (119 Shares) and Arthur Abercromby (1,935 Shares) all left the Board in the summer of 2004.
The current share value (December 2006) is is probably around the £1,200 paid by Robert Earl for the Greegs' shares, with 35,000 shares outstanding. This gives the club a nominal book-value of around £30M. Almost 25,000 shares were held by True Blue Holdings, the consortium Bill Kenwright put together (with the help of Paul Gregg and John Woods) to buy out Peter Johnson in 1999 (see below). TBH was voluntarily wound up on 2 December 2004. Paul Gregg and family later sold theri approximately 8,145 Everton shares, making a £2M profit on their £7M investment in the Club.
Lord Grantchester used to own 2,773 (7.9%) Everton shares... perhaps he still does? That leaves around 5,600 owned by others, including regular fans with as few as one share each.
Outdated but presumably not much has changed.
Shares in Everton FC Co Ltd are closely held. They are privately traded and do not often become available, rare transactions generally being through the club's brokers, Blankstone Sington (0151 707 1707). There is no official share price, so the cost of shares is governed by how much one is prepared to sell or pay for them, with the price dropping significantly for bulk lots. Individual shares are currently changing hands for somewhere in the range of £1,250 to £1,500. Everton's annual accounts include a listing of share ownership at Board level. This was the situation at the end of May 2006:
Bill Kenwright 8,754 Shares
Robert Earl 7,845 Shares
John Woods 6,622 Shares
Keith Wyness 0 Shares
Interestingly, the Articles of Association used to require that each director hold at least 3 shares in The Company... Paul and Anita Greg left the Board after selling their shares to Robert Earl in 2006. Sir Philip Carter (721 Shares), Keith Tamlin (119 Shares) and Arthur Abercromby (1,935 Shares) all left the Board in the summer of 2004.
The current share value (December 2006) is is probably around the £1,200 paid by Robert Earl for the Greegs' shares, with 35,000 shares outstanding. This gives the club a nominal book-value of around £30M. Almost 25,000 shares were held by True Blue Holdings, the consortium Bill Kenwright put together (with the help of Paul Gregg and John Woods) to buy out Peter Johnson in 1999 (see below). TBH was voluntarily wound up on 2 December 2004. Paul Gregg and family later sold theri approximately 8,145 Everton shares, making a £2M profit on their £7M investment in the Club.
Lord Grantchester used to own 2,773 (7.9%) Everton shares... perhaps he still does? That leaves around 5,600 owned by others, including regular fans with as few as one share each.
Outdated but presumably not much has changed.
I saw that, it was too complicated for me. Will try and work out the percentages later.
They can. The problem is who they sell them too.
There's basically two groups of people they could see them to: those who would invest money in the club and those who won't.
The latter are people who might speculate on the value of the club, buy shares, but not actually put further money in. That's pretty much what Woods is doing as far as I know.
The former would actually put further money into the club. The problem again is that if they put money into the club and they own 25% of the club, they only see 25% of the benefit. The rest is, again, a gift to the other shareholders.
The alternative is that they don't actually give the club money, but rather lend it. That's of pretty questionable value to the club, and this is basically what the likes of Pompey/West ham have done.
But none of the current board have invested 1 penny into the club. They have simply bought shares, watched as their share price has risen and watched as the club has racked up debt.
But they are seem as less evil than the Pompey/WestHam "investors".
If Bill Kenwright wasnt an Everton fan do you think he would have less "supporters" than he does now?
But they are seem as less evil than the Pompey/WestHam "investors".
If Bill Kenwright wasnt an Everton fan do you think he would have less "supporters" than he does now?
Thats it mate, Lordy explained it well. Its not as simple as the choo choo scenario, its actually quite complex. A negotiation would need to take place between the four most signifcant shareholders, they may all be willing to sell, they may not, in fact the only one who has stated his intention to sell for the right investment is Bill. It would make buisness sense for the rest possibly not to if a big investor came in. But then a big investor isnt likely to come in unless they owned the club out right, as you dont own the value of the club or the benifit indeed of any investment made unless you own it outright.
Even if that was negotiated you would have minor shareholders, to deal with.
Its extreamly complicated and comes down to a number of scenarios, but basicly all Bill can do is sell his shareholding not the club. This is unattractive to investors due to the need for investment yet very little equity in the club as a whole. Thats why other perhaps less perstigous clubs get taken over rather then us all the time, the sahreholding is far less complex.
Though Bill takes the brunt of supporters frustrations, he is the least of the supporters worries his intentions are known, it is the other shareholders intentions that are key and we dont know what they are.
Even if that was negotiated you would have minor shareholders, to deal with.
Its extreamly complicated and comes down to a number of scenarios, but basicly all Bill can do is sell his shareholding not the club. This is unattractive to investors due to the need for investment yet very little equity in the club as a whole. Thats why other perhaps less perstigous clubs get taken over rather then us all the time, the sahreholding is far less complex.
Though Bill takes the brunt of supporters frustrations, he is the least of the supporters worries his intentions are known, it is the other shareholders intentions that are key and we dont know what they are.
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I agree that both Kenwright and Pompey/West ham owners have simply racked up debt. But Kenwright has done is sensibly and managably, while the other two did it horribly, taking on way way too much debt, which is why those clubs have been forced to sell players and Everton haven't.
You are probably right that there is no difference in motivation between them, but non-football people tend to run football clubs terribly.
We are led to believe that Woods and Earl are friends of Kenwrights. They have no interest in the club, it is merely a money making excerise for them. So I think its safe to assume that they would be willing to sell for the right price. But what is the right price?
Why is Bill talking to people? Why is he looking for investment 24/7, if its an impossible task. Surely he is just wasting his time?
Why is Bill talking to people? Why is he looking for investment 24/7, if its an impossible task. Surely he is just wasting his time?
I wouldnt assume anything mate, especialy when it comes to money, Woods is a life long evertonian similar if not as vocal as Bill but when it comes to money its hard to know.
Robert Earl who by the way is only short a little % of Bills shareholding, is a buisness man and investor (some would even say a front man for Philip Green of whom he has close ties) i would doubt Everton in a footballing sense even register with him. Its all about the £££ in my opinion yet that just my opinion the truth is we dont really know!
But you can forget the mates thing, with the tens of million we are talking here, mates go out the window you can gaurentee that.
If anything Bill is the patsey in all this, his cards are on the table and he takes on a role in running the club and the fulchram of all fans criticism, i beleive he does becasue he genuinely loves the club. Yet we have nothing to learn from Bill. Yet you proabably walk past Woods and Earl each matchday and dont even know.
They hold the key to the club really.
The question i would have asked at the share hoders meeting isnt if or how much the club was for sale, but what are the intentions of each of the clubs majority shareholders.
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I agree. It's also safe to assume that if they are in it for the money, they wouldn't be happy if Bill was turning away buyers, and it's also safe to say they'd have spoken to Woods and Earl at some point too.
It's not impossible, it's just hard. It's hard to make a profit out of Everton by investing money. Almost all buyers of football clubs are in it to make money (Glazier, Hicks, Gilette, Lerner, West Ham twice etc - everyone except City and Chelsea basically). Some of them are certainly doing so at the expense of their clubs (Glazier, Hicks), while sometimes there is benefit to the club and profit to be made (probably Lerner).
So as we've discussed, in Everton's case, it's really hard to find an investor who can actually put money into the club to make himself profit.
Edit: Not necessarily impossible, but it's harder for an investor to make a profit. However, if an investor thought that Everton had huge potential for profit, he might be willing to pass up some of the profit. For example, say he bought 80% of the club for £100m, then invested another £50m. If the club's value rose to £250m, then he wouldn't be too unhappy that the minority shareholders got 20% of the increase that was due to his investment, because he still made a healthy profit. Obviously though, the less shares he can be certain to have the bigger the potential gain he'd want to see, to offset the minority interest, and Everton are clearly less attractive than other clubs in that sense (if he could buy a club where he didn't have to give up 20%, then he would).
On the other hand, it's not that much of a problem if you found a city style billionaire. I mean, he can just own 80% of the club, and pump debt into it. I mean, he's not planning on making a profit, so what does he care? So searching for that kind of "investor" (and investor is the wrong word really) makes sense.
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This is the really interesting question. I'd along ask "does the club have a plan/mechanism by which they expect to sell the club". i.e. is Bill pitching for a full sale, share issues, a series of individual transactions etc.
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