James Bulger

[Nebbiolo]

John I worked many years with people who turn out evil and some have had awful childhoods,but equally people with similar backgrounds have not turned out bad and the leap to this appalling attack on Poor Jamie is not as great as you would think,I have been involved in some truly awful cases that where not so far from this .

It must be horrendous, Roy. Especially as you were supposed to be offering care to people that some might go as far as to describe as monsters.

Tried to PM you before mate, but the thingy isn't working.

 

[coyney]

It must be horrendous, Roy. Especially as you were supposed to be offering care to people that some might go as far as to describe as monsters.

Tried to PM you before mate, but the thingy isn't working.

John I will pm you later its all good news at the moment

 

[GrandOldTeam]

That's the worry. If people are born with a propensity to sadism then ideas about rehabilitation and the like go out of the window. My view is that some people perhaps are born with this "faulty" genetic inclination. In saying that, I wouldn't recommend we go down your path, and do as to them as they have done to us! That makes "us" as bad as "them". Plus if you're correct, and they are born monsters, we also have the question of free will to deal with.

Aye. Serotonin levels etc can no doubt play a part in my opinion but I reject the assumption of the 'born bad' argument.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

yeah, we're all born as blank canvases, not knowing right or wrong, these are factors we learn

Maybe - but theres no doubt some biological factors can instigate certain behaviour. No doubt at all. I'll bore you at Chelsea with a study I done on serotonin levels

But in saying so, I dont think theres an argument people are born criminals, maybe born with biological traits which can encourage so.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Good post. Although i don't think their age is an issue in this case. Both boys knew that what they were doing was deemed wrong even at their age.

But what makes 2 young boys do what they did? Its a long answer but if you look hard enough you will find it. Simple answer is that 2 young boys who felt isolated and worthless within their own families came together and redirected those feelings inside them onto someone else.

At first they just wanted to kidnap a kid but leave him to be found, but then it escalated with 1 boy daring the other to go further and further with the other boy not wanting to back down.

Unfortunatly a lot of differing factors all came together and resulted in the horrific death of a young boy. Thankfully it is very rare that this happens.

I don't believe either of them will ever re-offend in the same manor, but i understand people not wanting them to ever be free regardless of their age of chance of re-offending. Does seem highly unfair they get new identities and a new life while the Bulger family have to live with what happened, but they would no matter what happened to Venables and Thomson. No matter what punishment they recieved it wouldn't of changed what happened or bring a boy back to life.

At the end of the day they weren't [Poor language removed] up sickos or monsters, they were 2 young boys who through a combination of many differing factors ended up commiting a horrific crime which changed their lifes and that of their victims family forever. And whether most people want to admit it or not it could of been any one of us. A scary thought most people wont want to face but the psychological make up of the human mind can be very dangerous, and we are all born with an equal chance of being the very thing we all despise.

But like i said earlier, it takes a lot of varying factors to all come together for that to happen and thankfully it is rare. And the more you learn about these things the better you can understand it. And just labeling people murders and evil etc etc while understandable doesn't help us understand why they are like they are. And the more we understand the more we can do to stop it.

Thankyou for a thoughtful, eloquent post in response to a very sad event.

 

[Nebbiolo]

Maybe - but theres no doubt some biological factors can instigate certain behaviour. No doubt at all. I'll bore you at Chelsea with a study I done on serotonin levels

But in saying so, I dont think theres an argument people are born criminals, maybe born with biological traits which can encourage so.

So therefore people can be born criminals in a loose sense; that is, nature has bestowed upon them them a propensity to act in criminal ways, given the way we organise society. You might say they are wired up wrongly, which might lead some to say that they were "born bad". Obviously the question about whether that "badness", or that "criminal inclination" can be contained is the next step. Perhaps in some it really cannot. This also begs the question of whether our whole way of "blaming" or "praising" individuals is on as solid ground as we would like to think. If I'm not really responsible for being a law-abiding citizen (for the most part), but it is down to my nature, I can hardly be congratulated for obeying the law. The same would, of course, go for the law breaker.

 

[Nebbiolo]

John I will pm you later its all good news at the moment

Cheers, Roy. Glad to here things are good.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

So therefore people can be born criminals in a loose sense; that is, nature has bestowed upon them them a propensity to act in criminal ways, given the way we organise society. You might say they are wired up wrongly, which might lead some to say that they were "born bad". Obviously the question about whether that "badness", or that "criminal inclination" can be contained is the next step. Perhaps in some it really cannot. This also begs the question of whether our whole way of "blaming" or "praising" individuals is on as solid ground as we would like to think. If I'm not really responsible for being a law-abiding citizen (for the most part), but it is down to my nature, I can hardly be congratulated for obeying the law. The same would, of course, go for the law breaker.

Yeah spot on. I used to be skeptical but after a bit of reading I wouldn't completely dismiss the nature argument. I would recommend this;

Crime Times- linking brain dysfunction to disordered/ criminal/ psychopathic behavior

 

[Seamus Colemole]

True, you didn't actually say it but I got the impression that's what you thought from your posts.

You're right i didnt say it. Did you really get that impression from my posts because of what i said specificly or because i don't scream "murdering sick bastards string em up" and choose to look at the case from a psychological viewpoint as human psychology is soemthing i'm interested i must be some do-gooding hippie who wants to give them hug then send them on their merry way to kill someone else?

Trust me i'm far from that but unfortunatly a lot people as soon as you try and talk about psyhcology and look for a reason behind someones crimes beyond "they're sick" they assume you want to let them get away with those cimes.

I think that in order to do something that evil you've got to have something majorly wrong in your head somewhere & I just don't buy into the whole "It's their upbringing's fault" crap. Lots of people have messed up childhoods & as sad as that is, most don't kidnap & then torture a young child over a prolonged amount of time before trying to make his death look like an accident. Those are the actions of complete & utter [Poor language removed] sickos & no matter how bad somebody's upbringing is, it doesn't excuse them.

If a person is born sick they have no control over that right? If a person is raised in a violent abusive household and learns nothing but negative bad emotions they have no choice over that right? But as soon as those 2 factors come together and that person chooses to commit a crime i.e torture and murder then thats it, their fault and their fault only?

Of course thats the way it is and the way it has to be, this world would be an even worse place than it is now if people were allowed to commit crimes whenever they fancied.

But if its inbuilt into your unconscious mind that you have no problem killing someone due to either how you were made or how you were bought up are you really going to not commit a crime just because other people disagree with you and say its wrong?

If you no ability to feel compassion, empathy and see fellow human beings as soemthing to be used for your own ends how can you suddenly one day change all that and decide the oppisite.

You say someone chooses to do everything they do? Correct, but what makes them choose to do what they do?

Just like you me and most other people we aren't suddenly going to turn into violent sick [Poor language removed] up criminals, it works the other way as well.

But after all that i'll just repeat that none of the above absolves someone from criminal responsbilty in society. For the overall benefit of a society and its members people who are like the above need to be taken out of society. But not allowed to remain in it to commit crimes because "awwwwwww poor things it wasn't their fault"

I see what you're saying about everyone being capable of being a killer, we all react to each situation differently but this wasn't just a "Moment of madness" reaction type thing, this was something they'd planned to do (as I think someone else has mentioned, they'd tried to abduct another kid before they got James) & even when they were going through with the vile crimes, not once did it click in their twisted minds that what they were doing was wrong.

Yeah they had planned to abduct another kid before James but able to sucessfully do it.

I believe they knew that what they were doing was wrong because they had been told it was wrong. Deep down they didn't want to hurt the boy, but a feeling of "no one gives a [Poor language removed] about us so we dont give a [Poor language removed] about him" got horrificly out of control.

They could of achieved the same goal by abducting him but letting him go a few hours later, i cant help but feel that saying it was just a case of 2 young boys daring each other to go further and further is almost trivialising their awful actions.

But in a way thats what it was, unfortunatly it had way more tragic consequences than stealing a few bottles or vandalising a few cars. In 99.9% of the time thats all it would be but this rare time it was much much worse.


I have sympathy for anyone who has a tough childhood, I really do but to just blame a set of crimes of this magnitude on it & say they should be forgiven is wrong. It's an insult to everyone else who's also had a tough childhood & has gone on to create a successful life for themselves & most of all an insult to the family of James & all who knew him. "Your son was tortured & killed but it's ok because the people responsible had a tough upbringing so you'd have probably done the same thing in the circumstances"

Agreed, you're right. As Coyney said, some people have really bad childhoods and are fine, others have really good childhoods but turn out bad. Thats when their psychological make up when they were born comes into play.

Its not always the answer but many times its part of it. And don't be mistaken in thinking that a bad childhood which creates a bad adult is neccesarily your typical abusive. poor, violent childhood you might assume. Its not as straightforward as that.

Mostly your average child turns out ok in most scenarios, but sometimes due to an unfortunate combination it all goes wrong. And that can be the wrong kind of person in a bad household just as much as the wrong kind of person in a seemingly good household.

Sorry if i rambled or if it doesn't make sense, i just hope you realise that nothing i have said is an attempt to have people get away with their crimes, its just an attempt to try and understand them and what makes them do what they do.

Slightly related, but if you don't know of it check out the work of the FBI's behaviorial science unit in Quantico USA and particulary Robert Ressler. His work with serial killers has helped us to understand what makes them how they are therefor making it easier to identify them and a catch. At no time did he attempt to get them off of their crimes but he talked to them and studied them, and learnt from them.

By simply saying that they are sickos who should die that never would of happened and we'd have a hell of a lot more serial killers running around killing people.

The more we can learn about killers from a psychological viewpoint the better off we will be.

 

[Slight_Return]

The more we can learn about killers from a psychological viewpoint the better off we will be.

And when these murderous lab rats have taught us all they can???

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You'll never learn everything about a human being Suits.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

And when these murderous lab rats have taught us all they can???

Hard to tell when exactly we have learnt all we can from them, we can learn from the human mind continuosly.

But if we did get to a point where they were no longer any use in terms of learning from them and what makes them what they are they serve out the rest of their lifer sentence in prison.

Although like i said it would be a long ongoing process so we may never stop learning from them.

(In regards to serial killers, child killers and the worst types of criminals)

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Failing that we could play Beethoven to them alongside images of a bit of ultra violence.

 

[Nebbiolo]

Failing that we could play Beethoven to them alongside images of a bit of ultra violence.

Now you're talking. Get Ode to Joy fired up just as it all kicks off.

 

[rstu471]

Christmas tree

where Christmas tree come from? When the winter solstice arrive, people brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death. Also People celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts.