James Bulger

[Nebbiolo]

Just an opinion or do you have evidence or reasons to back that up?

You may be right, some people might just be born evil and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it.



Maybe we are all born evil then. But due to our upbringing and emotional formations the majority of people are lucky enough to be turned good but a few people slip through?

I'd prefer the other way around, mate; that is, a human is essentially born with the propensity to be good, but that through a bad environment, he sometimes goes wrong. Still, the idea that some are born "evil" is a worrying one one, and one which does not sound silly given the breakthroughs seen in the behavioural sciences.

I don't think it's all to do with environment. But surely the majority of it is.

 

[Slight_Return]

the two of you have presented on view/agreed thereon, I have thrown up another.

What defines a person? their upbringing? their education? their thoughts? their actions perhaps???

Im not buying into genetic disposition, because conscience and morality cannot be pinned down to DNA. A lot of my point of view has been forced by the insult that is and has been for a long time the state of the so called 'justice system' - but such is the level of crime that the facilities are not available to provide all those CAUGHT with the luxury the tax payer currently provides...

Paedophile raped boy after being given bail (From thisisoxfordshire)

Paedophile walks free because all the jails are full | Mail Online

I dont like the daily (hate) mail, but it was the easiest found. There is a growing problem, what would you 'nice' people that believe in rehabilitation have done to sean mercer?

 

[Nebbiolo]

we're all born a blank canvas with the innate ability to learn.
fact.
some people have a pre-disposition and may be more sensitive to stimuli than others, but we are all born the same.

Your second assertion contradicts entirely your first and third.

Ask a geneticist if we are all born the same. We're not, Hayee.

 

[Slight_Return]

I believe she meant mentally and in terms of character.

I disagree, but it appears the point wasn't made specifically.

 

[Nebbiolo]

the two of you have presented on view/agreed thereon, I have thrown up another.

What defines a person? their upbringing? their education? their thoughts? their actions perhaps???

Im not buying into genetic disposition, because conscience and morality cannot be pinned down to DNA. A lot of my point of view has been forced by the insult that is and has been for a long time the state of the so called 'justice system' - but such is the level of crime that the facilities are not available to provide all those CAUGHT with the luxury the tax payer currently provides...

Paedophile raped boy after being given bail (From thisisoxfordshire)

Paedophile walks free because all the jails are full | Mail Online

I dont like the daily (hate) mail, but it was the easiest found. There is a growing problem, what would you 'nice' people that believe in rehabilitation have done to sean mercer?

Conscience and morality can indeed be linked to DNA. It is that which makes us the creatures that we are. A mother doesn't learn to be kind to her children merely by the example of others, it is normally coded into her being. Obviously other things grow from this; the ability to moralise for one (like you seem to enjoy), but these things owe their existence to the fact that human psyche is hard-wired to "be" certain things.

 

[Slight_Return]

like do unto other like they do unto you - mothers were babies once too you know.

 

[Hayee]

I believe she meant mentally and in terms of character.

I disagree, but it appears the point wasn't made specifically.

yeah, we're all born as blank canvases, not knowing right or wrong, these are factors we learn

 

[coyney]

yeah, we're all born as blank canvases, not knowing right or wrong, these are factors we learn

Having worked with these people,some have had advantages the rest of us never had while on the other side some have had awful times,yet both committed evil acts so I am inclined think that some are just born evil.

 

[micknick]

It was probably the most evil thing I have ever heard of, when I read line by line the inquest into what they had done I too actually cried- its the sort of crime you couldnt even make up.

I got thinking about it after, about the fact they were only 10 years old and looked at my own family- nephews, cousins and their friends who who of a similar age and you just cant comprehend someone doing it.

Evil once is one thing but the fact that the two boys did the acts they did without the other stopping them is just crazy. One lad must have taken the lead and the other- maybe too scared to pee his mate off just following suit.

I just cant help believe in human nature and the fact that they have had to deal with what they did every day- I dont know why but I like to believe in people and the fact they were 10 which to me is even too young to be out on their own. Whether it be mental issues that made them do what they did or other influences I just simply cannot believe that what they did has not haunted them every day of their lives.

Would I feel different if the offenders had been 18, 19 or 20?! Yes I would because at that age you certainly know what you are doing and have to live by your consequences. 10 years old?! Madness.

Whenever I hear, read or think about this story it always stirs alot of emotions. I feel for the parents having their tragic and sick event on the public domain- any parent, guardian or family orientated person would feel exactly the same.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

There is no excuse, 'the cycle' has to stop.

And yes, some so called human beings are born sick.

needs of the many versus the needs of the few.

the two of you have presented on view/agreed thereon, I have thrown up another.

Im not buying into genetic disposition, because conscience and morality cannot be pinned down to DNA. A lot of my point of view has been forced by the insult that is and has been for a long time the state of the so called 'justice system' - but such is the level of crime that the facilities are not available to provide all those CAUGHT with the luxury the tax payer currently provides...

Paedophile raped boy after being given bail (From thisisoxfordshire)

Paedophile walks free because all the jails are full | Mail Online

Are the bits in bold conflicting statements are am i reading it wrong?

What defines a person? their upbringing? their education? their thoughts? their actions perhaps???

All of that yeah. Although i'd say the latter 2 things are a result of the first 2 things.

The first 6 months of a babies life are the most important in regards to it forming basic human emotions. If it is loved and shown affection it grows up knowing what they are like so does the same to others. If it is not shown those things a child is likely to grow up lacking those basic human emotions.

But i would say there are numerous things that shape who we are, basically every thing we see hear and experience have some sort of effect on us. And every so often all those things come together to make someone "evil".

I dont like the daily (hate) mail, but it was the easiest found. There is a growing problem, what would you 'nice' people that believe in rehabilitation have done to sean mercer?

Who is Sean Mercer?

And why bring up those cases now, the justice system in this country is a [Poor language removed] in many ways, i dont think anyone is really arguing that at all but thats a seperate issue right now in this thread cause while soemthing does need to be done about it, the cases you quoted are disgraceful but thats an issue which should be directed at the Governement of this country and has nothing to do with the discussion of what makes people evil.

 

[Nebbiolo]

like do unto other like they do unto you - mothers were babies once too you know.

So you think that mothers care for babies because they remember being cared for themselves? That sounds a tad far fetched. Perhaps you've just got a better memory than me. I personally have no recollection of bonding with my mother as an infant. But I do feel very protective towards the vulnerable, be they human or animal. It's hard-wired into the system. Perhaps a biological advantage is achieved when humans, within their small groups, develop fellow-feeling. It's only a short jump to theorise that from that, morality grows and can then encompass more than just kin.

 

[Cahill's Metatarsal]

I never said anything about letting them out or getting away with their crimes.

Do you think thats its then a case of that they were born as sick evil monsters and its just a matter of time before they kill someone? That its as black and white as that and that no external factors come into it?

You do realise that the first few months are the most important in a childs life of forming their personality and pshycological make up, and every human being is still being shaped in that regard until early adulthood?

Most people end up as normal regualr members of society, just like you and me. Some people don't.

When i said that it could of been you or me that commited those crimes i didnt mean that you or i could go out tomorrow and kill someone but that if you or my circumstances were different when we were growing up that we would be different people. And there is a chance that you or i could of turned out to be a killer. Every single human being born on to this planet could turn into a killer. So many things can influence the road our lives take.

Yes people have to be responsible for their actions, its the only way a decent society can really exist, if it didn't people would get away with everything and we'd all be [Poor language removed]. Doesn't stop people from trying to understand those actions and find reasons for them.

True, you didn't actually say it but I got the impression that's what you thought from your posts.

I think that in order to do something that evil you've got to have something majorly wrong in your head somewhere & I just don't buy into the whole "It's their upbringing's fault" crap. Lots of people have messed up childhoods & as sad as that is, most don't kidnap & then torture a young child over a prolonged amount of time before trying to make his death look like an accident. Those are the actions of complete & utter [Poor language removed] sickos & no matter how bad somebody's upbringing is, it doesn't excuse them.

I see what you're saying about everyone being capable of being a killer, we all react to each situation differently but this wasn't just a "Moment of madness" reaction type thing, this was something they'd planned to do (as I think someone else has mentioned, they'd tried to abduct another kid before they got James) & even when they were going through with the vile crimes, not once did it click in their twisted minds that what they were doing was wrong.

I have sympathy for anyone who has a tough childhood, I really do but to just blame a set of crimes of this magnitude on it & say they should be forgiven is wrong. It's an insult to everyone else who's also had a tough childhood & has gone on to create a successful life for themselves & most of all an insult to the family of James & all who knew him. "Your son was tortured & killed but it's ok because the people responsible had a tough upbringing so you'd have probably done the same thing in the circumstances"

 

[Nebbiolo]

True, you didn't actually say it but I got the impression that's what you thought from your posts.

I think that in order to do something that evil you've got to have something majorly wrong in your head somewhere & I just don't buy into the whole "It's their upbringing's fault" crap. Lots of people have messed up childhoods & as sad as that is, most don't kidnap & then torture a young child over a prolonged amount of time before trying to make his death look like an accident. Those are the actions of complete & utter [Poor language removed] sickos & no matter how bad somebody's upbringing is, it doesn't excuse them.

I see what you're saying about everyone being capable of being a killer, we all react to each situation differently but this wasn't just a "Moment of madness" reaction type thing, this was something they'd planned to do (as I think someone else has mentioned, they'd tried to abduct another kid before they got James) & even when they were going through with the vile crimes, not once did it click in their twisted minds that what they were doing was wrong.

I have sympathy for anyone who has a tough childhood, I really do but to just blame a set of crimes of this magnitude on it & say they should be forgiven is wrong. It's an insult to everyone else who's also had a tough childhood & has gone on to create a successful life for themselves & most of all an insult to the family of James & all who knew him. "Your son was tortured & killed but it's ok because the people responsible had a tough upbringing so you'd have probably done the same thing in the circumstances"

I think a really bad childhood can effect the way you turn out. If you look at many people who commit violent crime, there is often a history in which they have been abused in some way, be it mentally or physically (Danny would be able to give the best verdict on that, seeing as it is his field). But still, I agree that going from that to what these two did is an incredible leap. There are some things that I can't imagine ever doing and I don't think it is merely because I had a relatively good upbringing.

 

[coyney]

I think a really bad childhood can effect the way you turn out. If you look at many people who commit violent crime, there is often a history in which they have been abused in some way, be it mentally or physically (Danny would be able to give the best verdict on that, seeing as it is his field). But still, I agree that going from that to what these two did is an incredible leap. There are some things that I can't imagine ever doing and I don't think it is merely because I had a relatively good upbringing.

John I worked many years with people who turn out evil and some have had awful childhoods,but equally people with similar backgrounds have not turned out bad and the leap to this appalling attack on Poor Jamie is not as great as you would think,I have been involved in some truly awful cases that where not so far from this .

 

[Slight_Return]

Are the bits in bold conflicting statements are am i reading it wrong?



All of that yeah. Although i'd say the latter 2 things are a result of the first 2 things.

The first 6 months of a babies life are the most important in regards to it forming basic human emotions. If it is loved and shown affection it grows up knowing what they are like so does the same to others. If it is not shown those things a child is likely to grow up lacking those basic human emotions.

But i would say there are numerous things that shape who we are, basically every thing we see hear and experience have some sort of effect on us. And every so often all those things come together to make someone "evil".



Who is Sean Mercer?

And why bring up those cases now, the justice system in this country is a [Poor language removed] in many ways, i dont think anyone is really arguing that at all but thats a seperate issue right now in this thread cause while soemthing does need to be done about it, the cases you quoted are disgraceful but thats an issue which should be directed at the Governement of this country and has nothing to do with the discussion of what makes people evil.

yeah you read it wrongly.

"If it is loved and shown affection it grows up knowing what they are like so does the same to others." maybe I have read that wrongly, but that is no way an absolute.

What happened to evil by choice?

Who is sean mercer? I give up!

directed at the government? get enough people sufficiently angry to force change - the longer the current insult of a system is allowed to linger the longer and more difficult it is to rectify.