Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

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I think that's true.

I also think that you can't really play "both sides" in this conflict. Israel is the oppressor, and the uncomfortable truth is the state came into being via ethnic cleansing of Jews from Europe, and Palestinians from Palestine, and subsequently Jews from Arab countries. I have Israeli friends, and I care about their safety, and I believe that it will only come about when they take their foot off the Palestinians throats and give up the extremists dream of ", Greater Israel".

See that's the bit I disagree with (respectfully).

I find many of the acts of Israel disgraceful - obvious war crimes have been committed and persist.
I find many of the acts of Hamas disgraceful - obvious war crimes have been committed and persist.

There's a lot of horrific acts happening, and a lot of propaganda on both sides. What I tend to do is take everything with a pinch of salt and definitely don't get riled up by it - which is the very intention of propaganda.

I don't 'have a side' as I don't know who or what to believe.
 
See that's the bit I disagree with (respectfully).

I find many of the acts of Israel disgraceful - obvious war crimes have been committed and persist.
I find many of the acts of Hamas disgraceful - obvious war crimes have been committed and persist.

There's a lot of horrific acts happening, and a lot of propaganda on both sides. What I tend to do is take everything with a pinch of salt and definitely don't get riled up by it - which is the very intention of propaganda.

I don't 'have a side' as I don't know who or what to believe.
Then, with respect, learn more.

There's a thread where I posted a lot of very good books, mostly by Israeli authors, on various aspects of the conflict, if you want somewhere to start.
 
Then, with respect, learn.

There's a thread where I posted a lot of very good books, mostly by Israeli authors, on various aspects of the conflict, if you want somewhere to start.

With respect mate, I have my own viewpoint based on everything i've read - i'm entitled to it, as you are to yours.

As I said previously, I don't have all the facts and believe it or not neither do you.



Not sure if you meant that post as passive-aggressive but that's how it came across.
 
Folks, please don’t think that a lack of moderation in here means it’s a free-for-all.

Basic rules of civility still apply. No name calling, etc. Folks are allowed to have crap opinions outside of overt racism and similar.

Since we don’t moderate this, you don’t get a warning. You just get CA banned.

It has gotten out of hand and bans will be incoming/ongoing.
 
Folks, please don’t think that a lack of moderation in here means it’s a free-for-all.

Basic rules of civility still apply. No name calling, etc. Folks are allowed to have crap opinions outside of overt racism and similar.

Since we don’t moderate this, you don’t get a warning. You just get CA banned.

It has gotten out of hand and bans will be incoming/ongoing.


This. Thanks Rafuh

I think me, @Blue 1 @efcste97 @Bluerover are remaining civil and I do enjoy civil debate - obviously differing opinions but i'd implore everyone to take a second before posting even though i'm pretty sure this is one of those topics that people just don't change opinions on.
 
I very rarely have agreed with Michael D over the years, but I agree with him here.


To call our Taoiseach anti-Semitic is, in my opinion, deeply offensive and wholly unjustified. Coming from thr Foreign Minister of another State it is incredible.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/1217/1486987-ireland-israel/

I am not a Simon Harris fan either, but his refusal to engage and sink to the same depths of insult is admirable.
 
With respect mate, I have my own viewpoint based on everything i've read - i'm entitled to it, as you are to yours.

As I said previously, I don't have all the facts and believe it or not neither do you.



Not sure if you meant that post as passive-aggressive but that's how it came across.
Sure, everyone is entitled to a viewpoint.

I just felt your posts have been a bit "both sides have done bad things, yada yada yada", which is such a simplification and doesn't do justice to what's actually happening and has happened since 1948, and you said yourself you didn't know who or what to believe, and I thought my suggestions might help to deepen your knowledge to the point you did.

My apologies if my post seemed passive-aggressive.
 
Sure, everyone is entitled to a viewpoint.

I just felt your posts have been a bit "both sides have done bad things, yada yada yada", which is such a simplification and doesn't do justice to what's actually happening and has happened since 1948, and you said yourself you didn't know who or what to believe, and I thought my suggestions might help to deepen your knowledge to the point you did.

My apologies if my post seemed passive-aggressive.

No don't worry about it mate, it's probably how I read the post - kinda start to expect kickback on this thread! no offence taken and definitely no need to apologise.

You're 100% right - I've simplified right down to the bones, but that's BECAUSE of reading into it. The further back you read - the more contradictions to each story you find.

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem by revisionist historian Benny Morris, states:


Israel-haters are fond of citing—and more often, mis-citing—my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections. . . . In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947, [the Palestinians] launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes. . . . On the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities. . . .

Most of Palestine’s 700,000 “refugees” fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became “refugees”—and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee)—was not a “racist crime” . . . but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.


This is from documentation from Israeli state archives, whilst Isidor Feinstein Stone (a Left-wing journalist) wrote about the exodus of Palestinian Arabs (written in 1948 as it was happening):

“Ill-armed, outnumbered, however desperate their circumstances, the Jews stood fast.” The Palestinians, by contrast, began to run away almost as soon as the fighting began. “First the wealthiest families went,” “While the Arab guerrillas were moving in, the Arab civilian population was moving out.”


- a hugely different recount to the current description where mass violent displacement happened - more fleeing.


This is my point. I wasn't there, I don't know. I've read polar opposites on both sides... And yes i'm fully aware it's a cop-out answer. I'm in no way denying it happened, merely which side to believe. You believe what you want, i'll remain unresolved.



Jesus Christ what a long-winded boring post that is. :eek:
 
No don't worry about it mate, it's probably how I read the post - kinda start to expect kickback on this thread! no offence taken and definitely no need to apologise.

You're 100% right - I've simplified right down to the bones, but that's BECAUSE of reading into it. The further back you read - the more contradictions to each story you find.

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem by revisionist historian Benny Morris, states:


Israel-haters are fond of citing—and more often, mis-citing—my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections. . . . In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947, [the Palestinians] launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes. . . . On the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities. . . .

Most of Palestine’s 700,000 “refugees” fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became “refugees”—and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee)—was not a “racist crime” . . . but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.


This is from documentation from Israeli state archives, whilst Isidor Feinstein Stone (a Left-wing journalist) wrote about the exodus of Palestinian Arabs (written in 1948 as it was happening):

“Ill-armed, outnumbered, however desperate their circumstances, the Jews stood fast.” The Palestinians, by contrast, began to run away almost as soon as the fighting began. “First the wealthiest families went,” “While the Arab guerrillas were moving in, the Arab civilian population was moving out.”


- a hugely different recount to the current description where mass violent displacement happened - more fleeing.


This is my point. I wasn't there, I don't know. I've read polar opposites on both sides... And yes i'm fully aware it's a cop-out answer. I'm in no way denying it happened, merely which side to believe. You believe what you want, i'll remain unresolved.



Jesus Christ what a long-winded boring post that is. :eek:
I disagree strongly with Benny Morris. He is also of the belief that the Jews didn't go far enough in expelling the Palestinians in 1948.
 
I disagree strongly with Benny Morris. He is also of the belief that the Jews didn't go far enough in expelling the Palestinians in 1948.

Yes, apparently he WILDLY redacted his views - Wishes he never wrote the book 'This is Israel' and was a massive critic of Israel in the late 60's.

As I say, you read one thing - it's discredited years later, therefore i'll remain semi-neutral till it's all done and dusted. My only inclination is that Hamas need to be eliminated with a (non-radical) Democratic Government elected, not that I think it will make a difference to any form of peace.
 
As posted deep in the vaults of this thread, I was very much in the minority as a strong supporter of Israel in my late teens. The rest of my school mates - those that were interested in Middle East politics - were firmly pro Arafat and PLO, wearing the scarf etc.

After this, I could no longer defend Sharon, the IDF and the Israeli Government's actions.


I did NOT become a PLO supporter either, but simply want to see peace in that historic land.

I never thought I would see peace in the Wee Six of our own country during the 70s, 80s and early ,90s, but incredibly it came, and sworn enemies went into Government together.

If I was told in 1994 after the Shankill Road bombing , Greysteel, and Loughinisland that Paisley and McGuinness would share power, and be known as the 'chuckle brothers' I would have thought the person telling me was cracked.

I pray for peace everywhere in the world. Sadly, humans have serious defects but it needs bravery, not at the point of a gun, but with an open handshake to reach through the mist of hatred, and try to create a peaceful future for all.

I will never give up hoping - I want to visit the Holy Land in a peaceful time to see the historic sites of all religions there.

It may not happen - we had a deposit paid on a trip in 2018 but Mrs BR was then diagnosed with cancer and we had to cancel DG she got through and is well- but I will always live in hope.
 
Yes, apparently he WILDLY redacted his views - Wishes he never wrote the book 'This is Israel' and was a massive critic of Israel in the late 60's.

As I say, you read one thing - it's discredited years later, therefore i'll remain semi-neutral till it's all done and dusted. My only inclination is that Hamas need to be eliminated with a (non-radical) Democratic Government elected, not that I think it will make a difference to any form of peace.

Apologies @Blue 1 it was I.F. Stone who wrote 'This is Israel' and redacted his views not Morris - misread your post, although the fact that both denounced their views speaks volumes 🤣

@Bluerover so sorry to hear about your missus mate, glad she's well now!
 
Apologies @Blue 1 it was I.F. Stone who wrote 'This is Israel' and redacted his views not Morris - misread your post, although the fact that both denounced their views speaks volumes 🤣

@Bluerover so sorry to hear about your missus mate, glad she's well now!
Cheers mate. She had surgery, chemo and radiotherapy from July 2018, and before Christmas 2019 she was determined to get both hips replaced having suffered for years.

Now she walks an hour every day after work, and I can't keep up with her ! :)

A tough Cahir, Co. Tipperary woman!! @Tipp blue @tippefc
 
As posted deep in the vaults of this thread, I was very much in the minority as a strong supporter of Israel in my late teens. The rest of my school mates - those that were interested in Middle East politics - were firmly pro Arafat and PLO, wearing the scarf etc.

After this, I could no longer defend Sharon, the IDF and the Israeli Government's actions.


I did NOT become a PLO supporter either, but simply want to see peace in that historic land.

I never thought I would see peace in the Wee Six of our own country during the 70s, 80s and early ,90s, but incredibly it came, and sworn enemies went into Government together.

If I was told in 1994 after the Shankill Road bombing , Greysteel, and Loughinisland that Paisley and McGuinness would share power, and be known as the 'chuckle brothers' I would have thought the person telling me was cracked.

I pray for peace everywhere in the world. Sadly, humans have serious defects but it needs bravery, not at the point of a gun, but with an open handshake to reach through the mist of hatred, and try to create a peaceful future for all.

I will never give up hoping - I want to visit the Holy Land in a peaceful time to see the historic sites of all religions there.

It may not happen - we had a deposit paid on a trip in 2018 but Mrs BR was then diagnosed with cancer and we had to cancel DG she got through and is well- but I will always live in hope.
Hope she gets to visit BR, she certainly deserves to .
 
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