Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

[davek]

That's very true.

Not an ideal starting point, is it?

 

[tsubaki]

I don’t agree with your assertion that the Japanese weren’t provoked into it. The Americans were itching to get into conflict with Germany despite what their population felt. They made sure they got a reason.

I was simply conflating what’s happened in Israel as a possible parallel not saying any more than that. And I’m not the only one to suggest it.

Hitler declared war on them, kev

 

[Wat Tyler]

Correct. Rather than flag wavers, perhaps supporters of terrorism would be more appropriate?



False.



False.



These terrorists are well known for it.



False.





False.



What would you say would be proportionate?



From Russia with hate.



I see you support both Russia and a terrorist organisation.



Correct.



There needs to be a focused attack on Hamas, which would be extremely difficult as the civilians no doubt would be fearful of any Hamas retailiations for anyone aiding the Israelis.

You haven’t got a clue have you, you nugget

 

[tsubaki]

No, and no again - Kev simply chooses to die on whatever hill causes the most furore. As we both know, the US was inherently isolationist as a state.

The US only brought its forces in the east (well, to their west) to alert because of a belief that Japanese expansion could and would threaten the Philippines.

Likewise, Japan saw the attack on the US Pacific Fleet as a necessity to allow their expansion in South East Asia, with the belief the US and UK would work together.

Blaming the US for the war in the Far East is beyond the pale.

Especially when it started ten years before the attack. That regime was only going one way and could only be stopped with overwhelming military force. Large numbers of them escaped punishment for their actions too, at least on this earth.

 

[ramacca]

I don’t agree with your assertion that the Japanese weren’t provoked into it. The Americans were itching to get into conflict with Germany despite what their population felt. They made sure they got a reason.

I was simply conflating what’s happened in Israel as a possible parallel not saying any more than that. And I’m not the only one to suggest it.

The US drew up many war plans after WW1. War Plan Orange was designed to provoke Japan into a war with the US. War Plan Red was a plan to provoke the UK into a war with the US be invading Canada. These Plans were only revoked in the1970s. The US has provoked many, many wars since its independence.

 

[tsubaki]

Probably the best article I’ve read on this, from Haaretz:

https://archive.ph/qlwbN#selection-799.0-799.12

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

They really aren't.

There's the usual hang wringing and the like, but besides a few more notes in the collection tins the majority in the region are not really bothered.

Lebanon will be the most agitated but their mainly annoyed because of decades of leadership that makes the tories look like skilled world leaders. They'd be well advised to turn on Hamas/Hezbollah based in South Lebanon and look the other way.

Edit: I see Hezbollah have just claimed this mornings rocket attacks from Leb as their handywork.

It’s the escalation beyond borders that worries me. Hamas have bases in Lebanon as well as in Syria.

I saw the reports this morning that Hezbollah decided to get involved (albeit in a so far limited way).

Israel will strike out at Hamas in Lebanon and Syria and now will probably take a few pops at Hezbollah. This whole mess has just started and it will sadly escalate.

 

[Zatara]

You haven’t got a clue have you, you nugget

Were innocent civilians murdered, wounded and kidnapped ?

Do you support terrorism?

Yes to all 3.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

My knowledge of the middle east is woeful.

Really bad. It was never taught in school, and when it's on the news I found myself struggling to understand.

Whenever I tried to understand it, I'd get tied up in knots.

I read Jeremy Corbyn say 'ending the occupation is the only means of achieving a just and lasting peace'

... What does he mean?

I googled and top listing was this;

Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession

Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.

www.amnesty.org

 

[WA Toffee]

The US drew up many war plans after WW1. War Plan Orange was designed to provoke Japan into a war with the US. War Plan Red was a plan to provoke the UK into a war with the US be invading Canada. These Plans were only revoked in the1970s. The US has provoked many, many wars since its independence.

To provoke them into it, or a plan in case it happened? I would assume every country in the world has several plans to deal with several war scenarios, doesn't mean they actually want it to happen.

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

That's just it, Jews and Muslims are (on the whole) quite capable of living side by side with no drama whatsoever.

It's pricks higher up the food chain who believe their more important than their neighbors that cause the issue.

In some cases yes I’d agree. I’ve visited Israel a number of times on business and spoken about this many times with people I met there, Jews, Muslim and Christian Arabs.

The underlying message I got from talking with your average Israeli is that the Arabs have a place but it is Israel that determines what that place is to be.

I did have a mind-blowing convo with a taxi driver who starting banging on about the Muslim dogs. He didn’t view Muslims as human and that they should be eradicated wherever possible!

Now I know this is probably a minority extreme view but people in Israel including members of their government and military hold the same views. Which is simply abhorrent and until this mindset is destroyed there will be no lasting peace.

 

[PhilM]

To provoke them into it, or a plan in case it happened? I would assume every country in the world has several plans to deal with several war scenarios, doesn't mean they actually want it to happen.

Mid-level planners in the War Office doing their job at producing contingency plans and training exercises, rather than any actual top-level work.

 

[BNJ1878]

I did have a mind-blowing convo with a taxi driver who starting banging on about the Muslim dogs. He didn’t view Muslims as human and that they should be eradicated wherever possible!

Now I know this is probably a minority extreme view but people in Israel including members of their government and military hold the same views. Which is simply abhorrent and until this mindset is destroyed there will be no lasting peace.

Sounds a lot like some UK cab drivers and our current cabinet when talking about, I dunno.... immigration.


You're right, it's the minority... But they tend to shout the loudest, particularly when they know they're in the wrong.

 

[Zatara]

In some cases yes I’d agree. I’ve visited Israel a number of times on business and spoken about this many times with people I met there, Jews, Muslim and Christian Arabs.

The underlying message I got from talking with your average Israeli is that the Arabs have a place but it is Israel that determines what that place is to be.

I did have a mind-blowing convo with a taxi driver who starting banging on about the Muslim dogs. He didn’t view Muslims as human and that they should be eradicated wherever possible!

Now I know this is probably a minority extreme view but people in Israel including members of their government and military hold the same views. Which is simply abhorrent and until this mindset is destroyed there will be no lasting peace.

You get similar though less direct views in Malaysia and Singapore. Two rather tolerant countries.

Also, it isnt one sided.

 

[tsubaki]

My knowledge of the middle east is woeful.

Really bad. It was never taught in school, and when it's on the news I found myself struggling to understand.

Whenever I tried to understand it, I'd get tied up in knots.

I read Jeremy Corbyn say 'ending the occupation is the only means of achieving a just and lasting peace'

... What does he mean?

I googled and top listing was this;

Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession

Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.

www.amnesty.org

The short answer is that, when Israel was created, the intention was that a similar state should be established for Palestinians. This never happened and instead the Arab armies that had taken part in the war that followed the establishment of the state ended up staying / protecting the remaining bits of what was meant to be Palestine - the Egyptians on the Gaza Strip, and Jordan in the West Bank and East Jerusalem . These areas were packed with refugees who'd been thrown out of what was now Israel, often as a matter of deliberate policy by the Israelis of scaring them out.

In 1967 the Israelis attacked and seized the above mentioned lands (they also seized the Golan Heights, but they are a part of Syria rather than Palestine itself). The UN Security Council directed that they should withdraw in exchange for peace and recognition (at that point none of the Arab states recognised Israel). The Israelis never did this, and instead tried to get around it (after the 1973 war) by getting deals with individual countries instead. Meanwhile they started to establish settlements, creating facts on the ground which could then be used as a reason to reject any meaningful peace.

Since then they've signed numerous deals only to react by building ever more settlements, which causes those deals to collapse (the one exception is the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 where they did remove settlements - but that was a successful attempt to, in the words of a senior adviser to the them Israeli PM "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem"). Under the terms the Israelis want, no Palestinian state would ever be viable - but despite this, the Palestinians have entered into agreements trying to get this sorted out, but have gotten worse than nothing out of that engagement. (edit) Meanwhile, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip and have repeatedly fought the Israelis, winning every time.