Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

[peteblue]

No bites today Pete. Everyone is losing it in the everton forum instead.

I daren‘t even look tbh......

 

[TaffyToffee85]

42 deaths this week, the lowest in a very long time and have now gone nine days in a row on single figures.

As much as we want to see it happen, we will never hit a zero week, this country is too populated and a crowded tin can at that also .

 

[PaddyJames]

42 deaths this week, the lowest in a very long time and have now gone nine days in a row on single figures.

As much as we want to see it happen, we will never hit a zero week, this country is too populated and a crowded tin can at that also .

Quite amazing that you've got the wrong thread but managed to make it quite apt for a civilian of Gaza. I believe, do you believe?

 

[BigMick]

Surely its the case that the more genuine, fair, understanding and credible an Israeli position was with regards to the Palestinians the "need" (such as it is) for Hamas (and their influence) would reduce to almost nothing?

That would be a fair argument if Hamas was a liberation movement, like Fatah for example. They aren't; they are an Islamist movement whose ambition is to establish an Islamist state 'from the river to the sea'. This would mean the destruction of the state of Israel.

This is from Article 13 of their official charter:

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.....There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."

So even a fair and credible Israeli position would not satisfy them.

It would also be a mistake to imagine the vast majority of Palestinian people have any desire to live in an Islamist state.

 

[BigMick]

I think most people in this thread wanted an end to the violence. Which thankfully seems to have happened in the main for now.

Personally I would like countries like the UK and US (and others) to acknowledge the disproportionate response from Israel. But rather than actively punish them with sanctions, force them to come together and try to forge a proper peace. And do the same with Hamas.

We have seen over the last 18 months what happens when everyone turns their attention and resources to solving an issue that impacts the world.

There is a lot of support on both sides (Israelis and Palestinians, not the governments necessarily) to foster a working, long term peace that suits both sides as best it possibly can.

Edit: Posted before I finished. You cannot treat Hamas as terrorists without acknowledging that people see Netanyahu’s government as terrorists in the eyes of the people they are fighting.

If the US, UK, UN, Egypt, Iran, UAE etc. came together and sat down with Israeli and Palestinian leaders we might have a chance of sorting this out.

Sadly there are too many interests in this ongoing crisis for that to seem like a viable solution at the moment

Some good points there, especially this:

'We have seen over the last 18 months what happens when everyone turns their attention and resources to solving an issue that impacts the world.'

Too many have been happy to maintain the status quo and just keep a lid on things. It was, for instance, way down the list of priorities for the Biden Administration.

However, do you think it reasonable to expect the Israeli's to negotiate with a movement which is sworn to their destruction? (See my response to @tsubaki 's post).

And who are these Palestinian leaders? Hamas? The PLO? Mahmoud Abbas? Or should it have eventually been the unity government which would have been formed if the elections hadn't been cancelled?

I'm not sure Iran have anything positive to offer. Qatar, who've kept the Hamas government of Gaza afloat, would be keen to contribute.

Sadly, I have to agree with your last sentence in that I fear any immediate direct negotiations would be doomed to failure. However, numerous steps can be taken to pave the way for serious negotiations at a later date, with the most immediate one being the question about Hamas, who are, unlike the Israeli government, an internationally recognised terrorist organisation. Should they, for instance, be allowed to once again stock up their armaments and rebuild their tunnels, while the international community pretends not to notice?

 

[BigMick]

You'll find most posters here will claim they are chanting for peace though Mick...

Regarding the shouting down and hounding out of the Grand Mufti - no-one should think he is some sort of Israeli poodle or tame establishment figure. he led the successful campaign against the metal detectors Israel installed at one of the entrances to the compound., and when the police entered the mosque last week he condemned them: “What is going on is a crime perpetrated by the Israeli occupation against the right to hold prayers and a crime against the people of Jerusalem. But their design will fail. The duty of the Islamic world is to rise to guard Al-Aqsa mosque.”

Tellingly, though, he also called on both sides to calm the situation.

The reason he was shouted down was because he refused during his sermon to praise Mohammed Deif, the leader of Hamas's military wing. I would have thought any true religious leader, rather than the hate preachers that grab the headlines all too often and give Islam a bad name, would do the same. Why would he want to praise someone like Deif who has scant regard for the sanctity of human life, be they Jewish or Palestinian?

Unfortunately the Hamas supporters in the mosque thought differently.

PA Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh said that the attack on the mufti was an “assault on the holy sites and national unity.”

Mahmoud al-Habbash, religious affairs adviser to the PA, denounced the assailants as “mercenaries working to serve the agenda of the occupation.”

The Grand Mufti himself said, “Such actions will not make us deviate from our main goal, which is to protect the Al Aqsa Mosque, which is still being trespassed by the Israeli occupation.”

Just to add to that, fighting broke out on Saturday at the Al Aqsa Mosque between Hamas and Fatah supporters. It's the first time something like that has happened there.. Hopefully it won't be repeated or spread elsewhere.

 

[tsubaki]

That would be a fair argument if Hamas was a liberation movement, like Fatah for example. They aren't; they are an Islamist movement whose ambition is to establish an Islamist state 'from the river to the sea'. This would mean the destruction of the state of Israel.

This is from Article 13 of their official charter:

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.....There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours."

So even a fair and credible Israeli position would not satisfy them.

It would also be a mistake to imagine the vast majority of Palestinian people have any desire to live in an Islamist state.

That is the point, though. Hamas only gets the support it does because there is no alternative - Fatah / the PLO are completely discredited and have no achievements.

If someone came along who could actually got progress out of the Israelis, the support Hamas have would fall away almost completely.

 

[BigMick]

That is the point, though. Hamas only gets the support it does because there is no alternative - Fatah / the PLO are completely discredited and have no achievements.

If someone came along who could actually got progress out of the Israelis, the support Hamas have would fall away almost completely.

No, I'm sorry, it wouldn't. There are people who are Islamic fundamentalists, who want to live in an Islamic state, under Islamic law. Some of them are Palestinian and support either Hamas or Islamic Jihad. They want to establish that Islamic state in the land of Palestine, 'from the river to the sea'. They are not interested in any two-state solution, or any settlement with Israel.

The final authoritative opinion poll before the elections were cancelled showed Hamas support slumping to just 8%. I believe that was misleading and their support is a little higher than that. So Hamas exist, Islamic Jihad exist, they have their supporters and are not going away by their own volition.

The people of Gaza would love to be rid of the Hamas government. The people of the West Bank don't want a Hamas government.

So the questions remain. Do the international community continue to turn a blind eye to Hamas replenishing their stockpile of arms, rebuilding their tunnels, and siphoning off aid money for those purposes? If not, what should they do about it?

 

[tsubaki]

No, I'm sorry, it wouldn't. There are people who are Islamic fundamentalists, who want to live in an Islamic state, under Islamic law. Some of them are Palestinian and support either Hamas or Islamic Jihad. They want to establish that Islamic state in the land of Palestine, 'from the river to the sea'. They are not interested in any two-state solution, or any settlement with Israel.

The final authoritative opinion poll before the elections were cancelled showed Hamas support slumping to just 8%. I believe that was misleading and their support is a little higher than that. So Hamas exist, Islamic Jihad exist, they have their supporters and are not going away by their own volition.

The people of Gaza would love to be rid of the Hamas government. The people of the West Bank don't want a Hamas government.

So the questions remain. Do the international community continue to turn a blind eye to Hamas replenishing their stockpile of arms, rebuilding their tunnels, and siphoning off aid money for those purposes? If not, what should they do about it?

For Hamas to lose power / influence, someone has got to come along from the Palestinians that gets something better for the Palestinian people (which a genuine, equitable settlement would be).

Would there still be people who opposed that? Absolutely, but the numbers of opponents would go down the better the deal was - that’s what we see with nearly every terrorist crisis that’s been resolved since the war.

 

[BigMick]

For Hamas to lose power / influence, someone has got to come along from the Palestinians that gets something better for the Palestinian people (which a genuine, equitable settlement would be).

Would there still be people who opposed that? Absolutely, but the numbers of opponents would go down the better the deal was - that’s what we see with nearly every terrorist crisis that’s been resolved since the war.

That second bit is certainly true amongst the secular majority; doesn't apply to the Islamist minority.

Hamas rule Gaza through force and a ruthless clampdown on any opposition. They are opposed to any settlement with Israel. They sought to undermine and ultimately made it impossible for Abbas to accept the 2008 peace offer, according to the PA prime minister at the time, Salaam Fayyed - a trustworthy source. It really doesn't mater what is on the table from the Israelis - not that anything will be on the table as long as Hamas are, at the very least, unwilling to accept the right of the state of Israel to exist.

So yes, I'm with you on the second bit if applied to the secular majority, but do you believe that Israel will, or should be forced to, negotiate some sort of deal with an organisation that will be free to break any negotiated settlement whenever they choose because they don't believe the State of Israel has the right to exist?

 

[Toffeeslam]

That second bit is certainly true amongst the secular majority; doesn't apply to the Islamist minority.

Hamas rule Gaza through force and a ruthless clampdown on any opposition. They are opposed to any settlement with Israel. They sought to undermine and ultimately made it impossible for Abbas to accept the 2008 peace offer, according to the PA prime minister at the time, Salaam Fayyed - a trustworthy source. It really doesn't mater what is on the table from the Israelis - not that anything will be on the table as long as Hamas are, at the very least, unwilling to accept the right of the state of Israel to exist.

So yes, I'm with you on the second bit if applied to the secular majority, but do you believe that Israel will, or should be forced to, negotiate some sort of deal with an organisation that will be free to break any negotiated settlement whenever they choose because they don't believe the State of Israel has the right to exist?

The biggest reasons that Hamas exist are the corrupt and inept PA and Israel itself.

The PA got booted out of Gaza because they were seen as corrupt and in it for themselves rather than the Palestinian people. This meant that the last elections to be held the PA were ousted from Gaza and Hamas moved in and ‘dealt with’ any threat to there rule in a brutal fashion.

Then we talk about Israel and it’s treatment of the Palestinians especially in the West Bank where there are no rockets but are still treated appalling. They have also been met with rampant settlement activity contrary to international law. They have also been clashes in Jerusalem al asqa mosque and forced evictions, summary detention of minors and a judicial system rigged against them.

This has meant that Hamas has positioned itself to be seen as the only group who will stand up to Israel and defend Palestinians from Israel as they view the PA as collaborators and thus it’s war with Israel has been spun as a political victory in the absence of elections.

With the PA not only weak, corrupt and incompetent the Israelis with the western worlds backing or apathy have been allowed to break internet law and violate qlaw a past agreements.

Only a strong political scene for the Palestinians can effectively counter Hamas and the Israelis and the west behavioural changes that does not undermine the Palestinians

 

[BigMick]

The biggest reasons that Hamas exist are the corrupt and inept PA and Israel itself.

The PA got booted out of Gaza because they were seen as corrupt and in it for themselves rather than the Palestinian people. This meant that the last elections to be held the PA were ousted from Gaza and Hamas moved in and ‘dealt with’ any threat to there rule in a brutal fashion.

Then we talk about Israel and it’s treatment of the Palestinians especially in the West Bank where there are no rockets but are still treated appalling. They have also been met with rampant settlement activity contrary to international law. They have also been clashes in Jerusalem al asqa mosque and forced evictions, summary detention of minors and a judicial system rigged against them.

This has meant that Hamas has positioned itself to be seen as the only group who will stand up to Israel and defend Palestinians from Israel as they view the PA as collaborators and thus it’s war with Israel has been spun as a political victory in the absence of elections.

With the PA not only weak, corrupt and incompetent the Israelis with the western worlds backing or apathy have been allowed to break internet law and violate qlaw a past agreements.

Only a strong political scene for the Palestinians can effectively counter Hamas and the Israelis and the west behavioural changes that does not undermine the Palestinians

OK if you want to believe that Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, wouldn't exist without Israel and PA corruption, fair enough - we're in danger of being sidetracked from the discussion. I take it you will acknowledge, though, that Hamas, despite their ideology, are every bit as corrupt as the PA: diaspora leader Khaled Mashal, who lives in Turkey, has an estimated wealth approaching $5 billion, while Mousa Abu Marzouk, known as the organisation's 'financial wizard', has conjured up a bank balance of around $3 billion.

What you say about Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, is correct, but are you trying to suggest that Hamas are popular, apart from when the bombs are falling when, of course, almost everyone rallies around the Palestinian cause? Every opinion poll before the internal splits showed Fatah (who control the PA) to be way ahead of Hamas in popularity, even though both were increasingly unpopular, hence the 29 new parties that were formed to take part in the elections. Public opinion on the PA was a lot more split than you suggest, despite everyone knowing about the corruption, with 51% against, while 44% viewed it as an asset. Just 11% wanted a religious society that applies Islamic teachings. These figures were from just before the elections were called..

You are correct in suggesting that Hamas has 'positioned itself to be seen as the only group who will stand up to Israel', particularly since Abbas cancelled the elections and attempted to blame Israel's stance on Jerusalem - fooling hardly anyone. The UN, EU and the Electoral Commission all came up with viable alternatives for the 6,300 voters, while Hamas proposed their own solution, which with hindsight is very revealing, that voting booths should be set up in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, thus forcing the Israelis to 'storm' the mosque if they wanted to stop people voting - a clever move. One thing that has to be said about Hamas - they are certainly politically astute.

You last bit about the need for a strong political scene is 100% correct. What a pity there were no protests,speeches or questions in the HofC from our democratically elected, proudly pro-Palestinian mps when it became obvious that democracy was again about to be snatched away from the Palestinian people. A pity it took missiles to be dropping for them to notice.

Ironically, corruption, along with Gaza unification, the Oslo treaty and the future of the PA. featured heavily in the 12 platforms I read of the new parties formed to participate in the election, including the two major splits from Fatah which caused Abbas to cancel. All of the new parties were secular rather than Islamist.


But anyway, regardless of all that, I genuinely want to thank you for being the inspiration for the questions I posed in here the other day, after you posted the following on the Palestinian Elections thread:

"Hamas need to be eliminated and for that to happen someone needs to reign in the Israelis and no one wants to do that hence it’s more than a local issue it’s a global one."

I described that as thought provoking and so posted this on here, to which a couple of people kindly replied:

"I'd like to think everyone on this thread would agree that Israel needs to re-engage with the Palestinians in an effort to find a peaceful solution.

I'm interested to know whether people think Hamas should have role in that process.

If so, what do they need to do to persuade Israel to talk to them?

If not, who should represent the Palestinian people? And what should be done about Hamas?"

I've since posted on the other thread what I consider to be the choices in how Hamas need to be handled, so will repeat it here:

What are the choices?

1. Do nothing. Maintain the status quo, turn a blind eye to Hamas replenishing their armoury, and wait for the next explosion.
2. Use force to defeat them.
3. Impose further restrictions on Hamas, in particular stopping the approximately $360 million that Qatar send to Gaza through the Israelis.
4. Find a way of working with Hamas.

1. This is surely untenable and immoral. Once again the biggest losers would be the people of Gaza.
2. Immoral and unthinkable, and probably impossible. Hamas and Islamic Jihad may have been defeated but the Islamist movement would eventually re-emerge.
3. This would likely cause the collapse of the Hamas government, leading to chaos, more misery for the people and a void which will undoubtedly be filled by the men of violence, both militias and criminal gangs. Worryingly, I've seen it suggested.
4. Obviously made more difficult by Hamas shattering their agreed 'period of calm' with Israel, but the only way forward. The pragmatic wing of Hamas need to steer the party back to the democratic path, and the cancelled elections need to take place as soon as possible. The previously agreed 'unity coalition government' needs to be formed, which would include Hamas members in non-prominent positions. Hamas would then be allowed to join the PLO, while the governance of Gaza would fall under the remit of the newly authoritative PA unity government. Hamas would then be free to try to influence policy in the same way as any other party in the coalition.

All of that could have already been underway had the elections taken place as scheduled last Saturday. Difficult to see how elections can be held any time soon, though the age and health of Abbas could yet change everything.

What would have happened to Hamas's armed brigades would have been one of the first of many problems for the new government to resolve.

If anyone has any other suggestions about policy towards Hamas I for one would love to hear them.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Fecking hell. What an absolute clown you are.

Imagine pretending to care but to care for the wrong side.

You are not edgy and informed you are simply clueless. If you really believe the tripe you type you need to go get an actual history lesson and maybe talk to an expert or two on the subject.

You are directing whatever rage you have at the wrong people which seems to be making you blind.

Very well put

 

[longers]

Quite possibly the most relentlessly stupid twitter thread ive ever come across




The knuckle draggers would rather go back to being bombed every night than have some Arabs protest apartheid lol

 

[Tramps_mate]

Now someone is speaking out..

UN rights chief: Israeli strikes in Gaza may be war crimes

GENEVA (AP) - The top U.N. human rights body on Thursday passed a resolution aimed to intensify scrutiny of Israel's treatment of Palestinians, after the...

www.dailymail.co.uk