Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

[Noisy noise annoys]

Oh yeah I agree. That’s the bit were us (The Brits) made a right mess of it all.

Nakba! The Palestinian word for catastrophe which is how they refer to our decision to force a two state “deal” upon them

 

[Tramps_mate]

There have been Jews and Arabs living on that bit of land for millennia. Why the national story of one needs to trump the other is the question they should be asking.

They have a joint historical narrative, and need to understand each other's pain rather than invalidate it, the perhaps they can work towards reconciliation. Both people believe the land to be God-given, and they worship the same God. The nation-states of "Israel" and "Palestine" are human constructs. If they love their God as they say they do, then they should be working together to "make the desert bloom", not turning it into a war zone, while one people live in luxury at the expense of the other.

Worst bit for me is that they all follow the same god!!

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

There are maps going back centuries that show Palestine and the Romans talk of the Palestina people

Equally so the Jews. The lands of Israel are mapped and discusses in ancient text going back long before Christ or Islam, over 1000 years BC. The Romans exiled Jews from the area creating the ancestors of the modern diaspora who's support we needed during WW1, thus the Balfour Declaration. It is such a complex situation and both sides are so entrenched that hate is consistently the guiding emotion. It is awful.

 

[Taifi gorm]

Yep, I don't know what the answer is, but tit for tat hasn't worked for the past 70 years, it's amazing to think that the leaders can't see that.

You could say it has for Israel. Slowly choked Palestine out if existence.

 

[Martin Alvito]

On this map question: both accurately represent one way of looking at the problem. The question of de facto and de jure control over dirt comes up often.

De facto refers to control in fact. The Palestinians never had governance of any of the territory until Oslo. It was occupied first by the British/UN. Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948, then lost it to the Israelis in 1967. I assure you that the Palestinians would be much happier under Jordanian rule.

De jure refers to control under the law. International law progressively scaled back what was recognized as 'Palestine' in the manner that the 'debunked' maps indicate.

What you're observing is not much different than the conquest of the United States and Canada. If you have both better military hardware/technology and support from the most powerful members of the international community, you can take dirt whenever you please. They'll rewrite international law to suit.

That is probably what keeps Zelenskyy up at night, with respect to US support.

 

[davek]

On this map question: both accurately represent one way of looking at the problem. The question of de facto and de jure control over dirt comes up often.

De facto refers to control in fact. The Palestinians never had governance of any of the territory until Oslo. It was occupied first by the British/UN. Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948, then lost it to the Israelis in 1967. I assure you that the Palestinians would be much happier under Jordanian rule.

De jure refers to control under the law. International law progressively scaled back what was recognized as 'Palestine' in the manner that the 'debunked' maps indicate.

What you're observing is not much different than the conquest of the United States and Canada. If you have both better military hardware/technology and support from the most powerful members of the international community, you can take dirt whenever you please. They'll rewrite international law to suit.

That is probably what keeps Zelenskyy up at night, with respect to US support.

Very good post, particularly the comparison with manifest destiny in the US Government's western and southern encroachment on lands held in common ownership.

 

[tantavisiteler]

Crazy that Ottomans managed to rule the area for 500 years without any major conflict

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Equally so the Jews. The lands of Israel are mapped and discusses in ancient text going back long before Christ or Islam, over 1000 years BC. The Romans exiled Jews from the area creating the ancestors of the modern diaspora who's support we needed during WW1, thus the Balfour Declaration. It is such a complex situation and both sides are so entrenched that hate is consistently the guiding emotion. It is awful.

Absolutely. The issue remains, can you claim lands that you have not inhabited for 2000 years

 

[davek]

Relatedly, because Roger Waters is getting especially more stick for his views now, this is a decent article on his plight:

The targeting of Roger Waters

Oh dear! Another pile-up on Roger Waters, with calls to ban his forthcoming shows in the UK. The…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Absolutely. The issue remains, can you claim lands that you have not inhabited for 2000 years

I'm sure that the nub of it has more to do with devout religious belief and the importance of those lands to their day to day practice. The issue being similar for both sides.

Edit: the other consideration being that Jews have always inhabited there, the issue has always been about control - Jewish, Christian and Muslim.

 

[Yarrgh]

I know why you think that.

From my perspective, I saw it more as it was only a matter of time before things escalated... again. It needs quashing on both sides and an agreement making. But it will never happen. Similar to Ukraine/Russia, they will never reach an agreement.



There was a guy on BBC news just then. He was questioning why, the West, UK/EU etc spend billions supplying Israel with weapons and intelligence so they can destroy Gaza, but we then spend billions rebuilding Gaza, only for the cycle to happen again 3-4 years later!! Its been happening for decades now. Its honestly mind boggling!!

You might just have said the quiet bit out loud. Sell weapons, then get the rebuilding contracts. And repeat...

 

[TheFinnFan]

Okay mate.

You’re clearly a racist lowlife with no regard for human life. You’re the lowest of the low.

So Israel is completely innocent in all of this?

Whole lot of big words from naive rat mouth. Good luck with sympathizing these terrorists. You must feel very edgy and hip.
And in to your question...Ofcourse not.

 

[neil999]

That looks to be similar to the map below which regularly gets debunked as not being accurate (i personally wouldn't have a clue as im not knowledgable on this subject at all).

View attachment 230876

Yeah that paints the issues as very black and white ,which is what people want - people need a bad guy,be it the Israel land grabbers or the Palestinian terrorists

 

[trueblue84]

Relatedly, because Roger Waters is getting especially more stick for his views now, this is a decent article on his plight:

The targeting of Roger Waters

Oh dear! Another pile-up on Roger Waters, with calls to ban his forthcoming shows in the UK. The…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

He's a bit of a all-round knobhead, so he gets little sympathy from me.

 

[Blue 1]

The problem with that thinking is that it ignores the historical reality that, for a lot of people, they are living where their ancestors lived. Many Palestinian Muslims will be the descendants of Jews, Samaritans, Christians and others who converted to Islam hundreds of years ago.

I am not sure that others, who lay claim to the land based on things that ended 1500 years ago to other people, have as strong a claim.

Absolutely right. Or to Christianity. Although Palestinian Christian numbers are dwindling as they tend to be wealthier and have had the wherewithal to leave. Everyone forgets about them.

Part of the problem at the moment is that someone from Brooklyn can go and settle there quite legally, while someone who can trace his family history on the land back 1500 years and holds the keys to property there languishes in a refugee camp with no prospect of return.