Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[hullefc]

This may be the real reason May will allow the north of the island of Ireland to stay in the customs union and the single market, in fact stay in the EU. The longer the Tories political paralysis goes on over the border issue, the more a border poll will be demanded.

Republicans seize on Theresa May's doubts about outcome of united Ireland poll
Theresa May reportedly expressed doubts if her government would be victorious in a border poll. Picture by Leon Neal/PA Wire

• 
  

JOHN MANLEY
16 May, 2018 01:00


Jacob Rees-Mogg believed a border poll would secure the north's place in the UK. Picture by Stefan Rousseau/PA Wire
REPUBLICANS have seized on Theresa May's apparent doubt over the outcome of a border poll as proof that the conditions for a unity referendum have been met.

The British prime minister is reported to have told Tory colleague Jacob Rees-Mogg that she would not be as confident as him about winning a vote.

The comments were said to have been made during a discussion with the arch-Brexiteer about the implications of new customs arrangements at a post-Brexit border.

Mr Rees-Mogg reportedly argued that the British government would emerge victorious from a border poll in the same manner that 2014's Scottish independence referendum had been won.

John Manley: Cavalier attitude to Brexit advances cause of united Ireland

However, the Tory leader is said to have voiced doubts about the outcome.


"I would not be as confident as you – that's not a risk I'm prepared to take," The Times reported Mrs May saying.

"We cannot be confident on the politics of the situation, on how it plays out."

A decision on when to call a border poll lies with the Northern Ireland secretary of state.

According to the Good Friday Agreement, a referendum can be called "at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland".

A Downing Street spokesman yesterday said the British government "steadfastly" supported the Good Friday Agreement.

He added: "It remains the Northern Ireland secretary’s view that a majority of people in Northern Ireland continue to support the current political settlement, and that the circumstances requiring a border poll are not satisfied."

However, Sinn Féin deputy leader Michelle O'Neill claimed Mrs May's remarks were effectively an admission that the threshold for a vote on Irish unity had been met.

The Mid Ulster MLA said her party had raised the need for a border poll with the British government on "numerous occasions over recent years".

"On each occasion they have stated that they do not believe the threshold has been met but have repeatedly refused to clarify what criteria they use to reach this conclusion," Ms O'Neill said.

She described the failure to call a referendum as an "appalling display of contempt for the democratic rights of Irish citizens".

"It is also a fundamental breach of the Good Friday Agreement which clearly provides for a referendum – Theresa May has no right to deny democratic entitlements to the people of Ireland, north and south."

SDLP leader Colum Eastwood said the Tory leader's comments reflected the "changing constitutional landscape" after the Brexit vote.

However, he said the current climate of uncertainty is "not the time to sensationalise unity or obsess over border polls".

He said the SDLP was committed to "delivering a new inclusive Ireland" but unionism needed to be persuaded about the benefits of Irish unity.

“It is vitally important for those of us who are committed to a new and reconciled Ireland (that we) advance that position with open arms and an open mind of what an inclusive Ireland would look like," he said.

“The SDLP remain committed to the principle of consent, and with changing demographics and wavering political tides, we recognise the task at hand in reaching out to unionism on this very issue, however, if that last two years have taught us anything, we cannot and should not take any political eventuality for granted."

 

[dublinbluenose]

 

[gonetomorrow]

Those numpties at Stormont want to swallow their arguments for once and get to work. Decisions are going to be made for them by someone else at this rate.

 

[hullefc]

Davis/May/Johnson/Gove/Rees Mogg are still scrambling around trying to find a solution that would keep the DUP on board, and keep them in government.


Border could get 'buffer zone' under new Brexit proposals
Britain's Brexit secretary David Davis is believed to now favour a 'buffer zone' on the border

• 
  

Andrew Woodcock, Press Association
01 June, 2018 10:33

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a strident Brexiteer

Northern Ireland could be given joint EU and UK status and a "buffer zone" on its border with the Republic, under new plans being drawn up by David Davis, according to reports.

There was no immediate response from Mr Davis's Department for Exiting the EU to a report in The Sun suggesting Britain's Brexit secretary is to put forward a radical new solution to the thorny issue of future customs arrangements.

Theresa May's Brexit war cabinet is split down the middle between the British prime minister's preferred "customs partnership", under which the UK would gather tariffs on behalf of the EU, and the so-called "maximum facilitation" solution using technology to avoid the need for border checks.

With pressure mounting to agree a position before a summit of EU leaders on June 28, Mrs May set up two working groups to find amendments to the two schemes which could unite her feuding ministers.

According to The Sun, Mr Davis - who heads the Max Fac group - is ready to drop his support for technological solutions, after police warned that infrastructure like numberplate recognition cameras would become a target for sectarian attack.

Instead, he is reportedly drawing up a new plan based on the "double-hatted" model in place in Liechtenstein, which would allow the province to operate both UK and EU regulations at the same time.


A 10-mile wide "special economic zone" would be created along the 310-mile border, within which local traders could operate under the Republic's trade rules.

An unnamed Whitehall source told the paper: "Max Fac 2 is tremendously complicated, but it's at least something the Cabinet can unite around."

The source acknowledged it would be a challenge to secure backing for the plan from the DUP, which props up Mrs May's government at Westminster and has made clear that it does not want Northern Ireland treated differently from the rest of the UK.

Labour MP Virendra Sharma, a supporter of the Best for Britain campaign, said: "With these latest proposals anyone would think the government is making this up as they going along.

"They are desperate for any solution, no matter how fantastical, to appease Tory right wingers.

"Even though it doesn't pass basic scrutiny they don't seem to care. (Jacob) Rees-Mogg is calling the shots at the moment and the government are just doing his bidding."

Labour MP Chris Leslie, a supporter of the Open Britain campaign, said: "If there was an award for coming up with unnecessarily complicated and convoluted solutions to self-inflicted problems, David Davis would win it every year.

"The solution to this dilemma is staring David Davis in the face: the UK as a whole must stay in the Single Market and the Customs Union."

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has said that neither of the options for Northern Ireland being discussed by Mrs May's Cabinet is "operational or acceptable".

In a private meeting with members of the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group, Mr Barnier said: "The British have been moving forward with several ideas.

"They have two proposals which are being debated with British ministers. Neither of those proposals are operational or acceptable to us."

The customs partnership and Max Fac proposals had previously been dismissed as unworkable in anonymous briefings by EU officials. Mr Barnier's comments, filmed in a documentary for Vice News, are the clearest public statement so far of Brussels's rejection of both schemes.

Responding to the chief negotiator, Italian MEP Roberto Gualtieri said: "Indeed, I agree with you that the two options on customs are totally unworkable."

Mr Barnier told Vice he had "no certainty" about the nature of Britain's future relationship with the EU.

"I can see the difficulty and intensity of this debate," he said. "We are waiting for the British to have clear positions and choices.

"It is the decision of the British to leave the Union that has created the problem. No-one else. Nothing else."

He added: "What is sometimes hard for the British to understand is that we don't want to negotiate, we don't want to compromise on who we are. They want to leave, it is their choice to leave."

In response to queries about Mr Davis's reported proposal, a Dexeu spokesman neither confirmed nor denied The Sun's report.

The spokesman said: "We have set out two viable future customs arrangements with the EU and work is ongoing to refine these. "Both of these would deliver on our commitments to ensure UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible, avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, preserve the integrity of the UK's internal market and enable us to establish an independent international trade policy."

Liberal Democrat Brexit spokesman Tom Brake said: "More and more by the day, Tory plans are sounding like something out of Alice in Wonderland.

"The public must be given the final say on the deal, with the opportunity to Exit from Brexit."

Sinn Féin accused Mr Davis of trying to "hide a hard border in a buffer zone".

Party MEP Martina Anderson said the reported proposals were "light on detail".

"Once again this shows the lack of knowledge of border areas and the concerns they face - David Davis obviously didn't learn much on his flying visits," she said.

"The creation of a buffer zone would merely move the problem away from the border and hide a hard border in a buffer zone.

"While it appears that the British government is finally accepting that a unique solution is required for the north of Ireland, it must also accept the backstop option which it has already agreed.

"This proposed plan, which is still being devised, focuses solely on trade and does not take into account the huge impact Brexit will have on the rights of people in the north.

"The best way to protect trade, agriculture and the rights of people living in the north, as well as ensuring full protection for the Good Friday Agreement, is for the north to remain in the customs union and single market and to have special status within the EU."

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Davis/May/Johnson/Gove/Rees Mogg are still scrambling around trying to find a solution that would keep the DUP on board, and keep them in government.


Border could get 'buffer zone' under new Brexit proposals
Britain's Brexit secretary David Davis is believed to now favour a 'buffer zone' on the border

• 
  

Andrew Woodcock, Press Association
01 June, 2018 10:33

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a strident Brexiteer

Northern Ireland could be given joint EU and UK status and a "buffer zone" on its border with the Republic, under new plans being drawn up by David Davis, according to reports.

There was no immediate response from Mr Davis's Department for Exiting the EU to a report in The Sun suggesting Britain's Brexit secretary is to put forward a radical new solution to the thorny issue of future customs arrangements.

Theresa May's Brexit war cabinet is split down the middle between the British prime minister's preferred "customs partnership", under which the UK would gather tariffs on behalf of the EU, and the so-called "maximum facilitation" solution using technology to avoid the need for border checks.

With pressure mounting to agree a position before a summit of EU leaders on June 28, Mrs May set up two working groups to find amendments to the two schemes which could unite her feuding ministers.

According to The Sun, Mr Davis - who heads the Max Fac group - is ready to drop his support for technological solutions, after police warned that infrastructure like numberplate recognition cameras would become a target for sectarian attack.

Instead, he is reportedly drawing up a new plan based on the "double-hatted" model in place in Liechtenstein, which would allow the province to operate both UK and EU regulations at the same time.


A 10-mile wide "special economic zone" would be created along the 310-mile border, within which local traders could operate under the Republic's trade rules.

An unnamed Whitehall source told the paper: "Max Fac 2 is tremendously complicated, but it's at least something the Cabinet can unite around."

The source acknowledged it would be a challenge to secure backing for the plan from the DUP, which props up Mrs May's government at Westminster and has made clear that it does not want Northern Ireland treated differently from the rest of the UK.

Labour MP Virendra Sharma, a supporter of the Best for Britain campaign, said: "With these latest proposals anyone would think the government is making this up as they going along.

"They are desperate for any solution, no matter how fantastical, to appease Tory right wingers.

"Even though it doesn't pass basic scrutiny they don't seem to care. (Jacob) Rees-Mogg is calling the shots at the moment and the government are just doing his bidding."

Labour MP Chris Leslie, a supporter of the Open Britain campaign, said: "If there was an award for coming up with unnecessarily complicated and convoluted solutions to self-inflicted problems, David Davis would win it every year.

"The solution to this dilemma is staring David Davis in the face: the UK as a whole must stay in the Single Market and the Customs Union."

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has said that neither of the options for Northern Ireland being discussed by Mrs May's Cabinet is "operational or acceptable".

In a private meeting with members of the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group, Mr Barnier said: "The British have been moving forward with several ideas.

"They have two proposals which are being debated with British ministers. Neither of those proposals are operational or acceptable to us."

The customs partnership and Max Fac proposals had previously been dismissed as unworkable in anonymous briefings by EU officials. Mr Barnier's comments, filmed in a documentary for Vice News, are the clearest public statement so far of Brussels's rejection of both schemes.

Responding to the chief negotiator, Italian MEP Roberto Gualtieri said: "Indeed, I agree with you that the two options on customs are totally unworkable."

Mr Barnier told Vice he had "no certainty" about the nature of Britain's future relationship with the EU.

"I can see the difficulty and intensity of this debate," he said. "We are waiting for the British to have clear positions and choices.

"It is the decision of the British to leave the Union that has created the problem. No-one else. Nothing else."

He added: "What is sometimes hard for the British to understand is that we don't want to negotiate, we don't want to compromise on who we are. They want to leave, it is their choice to leave."

In response to queries about Mr Davis's reported proposal, a Dexeu spokesman neither confirmed nor denied The Sun's report.

The spokesman said: "We have set out two viable future customs arrangements with the EU and work is ongoing to refine these. "Both of these would deliver on our commitments to ensure UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible, avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, preserve the integrity of the UK's internal market and enable us to establish an independent international trade policy."

Liberal Democrat Brexit spokesman Tom Brake said: "More and more by the day, Tory plans are sounding like something out of Alice in Wonderland.

"The public must be given the final say on the deal, with the opportunity to Exit from Brexit."

Sinn Féin accused Mr Davis of trying to "hide a hard border in a buffer zone".

Party MEP Martina Anderson said the reported proposals were "light on detail".

"Once again this shows the lack of knowledge of border areas and the concerns they face - David Davis obviously didn't learn much on his flying visits," she said.

"The creation of a buffer zone would merely move the problem away from the border and hide a hard border in a buffer zone.

"While it appears that the British government is finally accepting that a unique solution is required for the north of Ireland, it must also accept the backstop option which it has already agreed.

"This proposed plan, which is still being devised, focuses solely on trade and does not take into account the huge impact Brexit will have on the rights of people in the north.

"The best way to protect trade, agriculture and the rights of people living in the north, as well as ensuring full protection for the Good Friday Agreement, is for the north to remain in the customs union and single market and to have special status within the EU."

I genuinely can’t understand how this would work in practice.

Would their be a political border and then a customs border. 2 for the price of one?

 

[abelard]

My favourite part is that the "buffer zone" would include the island's fourth biggest city... and Arlene Foster's house!

From Stephen Bush:
"Still, you have to hand it to Davis, who has managed to come up with a solution to the border problem that unites the DUP, Sinn Féin, the Irish government and the European Union in opposition."

300 days to go and we are still arguing about which of the various plans the EU has said it will reject to put forward to the EU, for it to then reject.

Great works boys!

 

[Armaghtoffee]

My favourite part is that the "buffer zone" would include the island's fourth biggest city... and Arlene Foster's house!

From Stephen Bush:
"Still, you have to hand it to Davis, who has managed to come up with a solution to the border problem that unites the DUP, Sinn Féin, the Irish government and the European Union in opposition."

300 days to go and we are still arguing about which of the various plans the EU has said it will reject to put forward to the EU, for it to then reject.

Great works boys!

Don’t knock it!!

Cross community work has always been financially supported by the EU for the betterment of the entire nation.

Davis could well be a political genius and we just don’t deserve him.

 

[peteblue]

I genuinely can’t understand how this would work in practice.

Would their be a political border and then a customs border. 2 for the price of one?

It’s getting stupid now. The UK doesnt want a border, the EU do,the ROI don’t but back the EU. We should go back to the beginning and tell them we are not putting a border in, full stop, and let them figure one out if they really want one. If it means no deal then so be it. Then let’s see what the ROI supports......

 

[Armaghtoffee]

It’s getting stupid now. The UK doesnt want a border, the EU do,the ROI don’t but back the EU. We should go back to the beginning and tell them we are not putting a border in, full stop, and let them figure one out if they really want one. If it means no deal then so be it. Then let’s see what the ROI supports......

EU doesn’t want a hard border. They couldn’t be clearer about that.

 

[peteblue]

EU doesn’t want a hard border. They couldn’t be clearer about that.

So we don’t want one, and the EU doesn’t want one, so who is insisting on putting one in place.....

 

[Armaghtoffee]

So we don’t want one, and the EU doesn’t want one, so who is insisting on putting one

So what should happen Pete?

An open border for goods or people to cross unchecked?

I asked you this before and you said that would be acceptable as it’s small numbers. I can’t remember the exact wording to be fair.

But your proposal essential meant no customs on the Island which is exactly what is being proposed by the vast majority of North of Ireland politicians.

The border would be at the ports and airports.

 

[peteblue]

No what is being proposed and promulgated by the ROI is a way to keep NI under EU governance. The ROI believe it will lead to unification under their control. As you say, I have said before that the big stuff that crosses the border is already under computer control and the little stuff isn’t even worth discussing. This is a manufactured political argument which we are foolishly reacting to...

 

[Armaghtoffee]

No what is being proposed and promulgated by the ROI is a way to keep NI under EU governance. The ROI believe it will lead to unification under their control. As you say, I have said before that the big stuff that crosses the border is already under computer control and the little stuff isn’t even worth discussing. This is a manufactured political argument which we are foolishly reacting to...

No Pete, that is enemy at the gates stuff akin to the NI Unionist agenda. Ireland will protect it’s own interests and that shouldn’t be confused with following an EU lead. That is what being a responsible Government means.

 

[peteblue]

No Pete, that is enemy at the gates stuff akin to the NI Unionist agenda. Ireland will protect it’s own interests and that shouldn’t be confused with following an EU lead. That is what being a responsible Government means.

Well let’s see how it all works out.....

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

No what is being proposed and promulgated by the ROI is a way to keep NI under EU governance. The ROI believe it will lead to unification under their control. As you say, I have said before that the big stuff that crosses the border is already under computer control and the little stuff isn’t even worth discussing. This is a manufactured political argument which we are foolishly reacting to...

That’s absolute toffee mate, painting the EU as the bogeyman again....