Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[peteblue]

I have no doubt that the EU would 'use Ireland'. Just as I have no doubt the Tories tried to bully the Irish and get political advantage over Ireland, in their negotiations with the EU. Initially, using the 'you need us more than we need you' bullying tactic the UK 'told' the Irish they would have to control immigrants coming to the island of Ireland, at Irish ports and airports, and potentially onward to the UK (Northern Ireland). The Irish told the Tories to do one because it would have effectively meant the Irish leaving the EU. When trying to bounce the Irish out of the EU didn't work they threw their dummy out and threatened a 'hard border' knowing this would affect the Irish economy and the northern Irish economy. The bullying Tories didn't care less about not only the republic of Ireland but also the north.

When it was pointed out to the imbecilic Tories that any border on the island of Ireland, would be against the Belfast Agreement - an international treaty signed by two sovereign governments and lodged with the UN - they were forced to change tact. They had to be told by the Irish and the EU what was in the GFA and what the implications were if they imposed a border, as the UK had threatened on the island of Ireland, to control immigration. It was like the Tories didn't even know what the treaty was all about. Not really surprising.

The Tories being in hock to the DUP politically is coming home to roost. The UK government can put a border on the island of Ireland, what the DUP wants and this would mean the GFA null and void. In other words the UK reneging on an international treaty. This will hardly go down well with not only the EU - the parliament - who the UK hope they can sign a trade agreement but the rest of the world, and in particular, the Irish presence in the US. Or the UK will have to agree to the north having special status - no borders - in effect remaining in the single market and the customs union (or something very similar). Something the DUP are against and have threatened to bring down the government over.

No wonder there is panic in the Tory ranks and this week-end will be very interesting. May has attempted to offer more money to the EU, than they need to pay, in an attempt to get the EU to turn their back on Ireland. Unfortunately, as of today the EU said it was up to Ireland. We will see.

I’m not sure if you do this wilfully or just ignore what is said. The U.K. does not want and will not put up a hard border. That’s it. We will not do it. There will be no hard border on the U.K. side. Nothing.......the only people going on about borders are the EU......Ireland are arguing with the wrong people, or sorry, are arguing with the U.K. as a way of arguing with the EU......

 

[peteblue]

The border issues is probably the most serious issue. If that can't be figured out Brexit cannot happen properly to be frank. How can you leave the EU and leave a gaping hole in your border with a sovereign land which is an EU member.

It basically means that NI was never thought of when they ploughed into the idea of leaving Europe.

Their solutions are insulting and not very well thought out. For instance - "Ireland should just leave and join us" or "it will stay the same" or more recently "there is a plan and we will use technology (without saying what that is)".

The EU are not using Ireland there is no need to because Britain has so far embarrassed itself in the eyes of Europe and probably anyone else in the world keeping track.

No plan, No idea how to solve complex issues and in denial about certain aspects of what is a certainty to happen.

Again, you are just falling into the EU bureaucratic trap. The U.K. isn’t bothered about an Irish border, only the EU is......

 

[abelard]

I’m not sure if you do this wilfully or just ignore what is said. The U.K. does not want and will not put up a hard border. That’s it. We will not do it. There will be no hard border on the U.K. side. Nothing.......the only people going on about borders are the EU......Ireland are arguing with the wrong people, or sorry, are arguing with the U.K. as a way of arguing with the EU......

happy to hear you're come around on staying in the customs union then

 

[peteblue]

lol

Why would you laugh at that. We are each other’s best trading partners, we have found a way to live with each other without borders, quite a few of us are of Irish blood.......

 

[peteblue]

happy to hear you're come around on staying in the customs union then

We had a customs union between the U.K. and Ireland before the EU existed. Why argue the point from a Brussels perspective, it’s not needed.........

 

[SteveSC]

Again, you are just falling into the EU bureaucratic trap. The U.K. isn’t bothered about an Irish border, only the EU is......

That's the bloody problem Pete. Haha!! The fact that they weren't and still are not bothered.

 

[peteblue]

That's the bloody problem Pete. Haha!! The fact that they weren't and still are not bothered.

Bertie Ahern wrote a piece about trusting what Theresa May has said, no hard border. He said that the proposal to use technology etc will do most of the job, but that some things we may just have to turn a blind eye to. This of course would never be acceptable to EU bureaucrats, but it’s pragmatic and sensible for that particular environment. The EU want to tie down this border between itself and an isolated ex member in a manner that is far more draconian than the porous borders to its Asian facing east or its African facing south. This is purely a negotiating point for the EU, anyone believing otherwise is well......

 

[abelard]

Why would you laugh at that. We are each other’s best trading partners, we have found a way to live with each other without borders, quite a few of us are of Irish blood.......

the spectre of Brexit is already a major crisis for Ireland, easily the most predictable of the cascading litany; yet it scarcely occurred to the Leavers to even consider what the obvious consequences would be.

Gove, BoJo, Rees-Mogg, Fox, Davis, and any of the other vicious Tory dotards would happily choose to sink the entire island if they thought there was so much as a whiff of a possibility of gaining some trivial political benefit from it

and that is demonstrably just as true for the island your barstool's currently sat on

We had a customs union between the U.K. and Ireland before the EU existed. Why argue the point from a Brussels perspective, it’s not needed.........

"I’m not sure if you do this wilfully or just ignore what is said"

 

[SteveSC]

Bertie Ahern wrote a piece about trusting what Theresa May has said, no hard border. He said that the proposal to use technology etc will do most of the job, but that some things we may just have to turn a blind eye to. This of course would never be acceptable to EU bureaucrats, but it’s pragmatic and sensible for that particular environment. The EU want to tie down this border between itself and an isolated ex member in a manner that is far more draconian than the porous borders to its Asian facing east or its African facing south. This is purely a negotiating point for the EU, anyone believing otherwise is well......

You mean Bertie brown suitcase Ahern? I was a Fianna Fail supporter many moons ago and this crook was the scourge of the party.

Not the best figure from Irish politics to quote. Not an honest guy and his word means nothing to many Irish people.

Ok so granted the technology idea. I asked Joey the questions below and got only ANPR which by the way would be a start only it is limited and it is not integrated with the Gardai databases yet. So it would only be up north

What type of technology?
What will it do?
What will it cover?
How does it track people?

British politicians have used that word but not one of them has elaborated.

Full disclosure.... i am in the automated industry IT wise. Projects of that grand scale take a lot of planning, time and funding if the use of computer readers, scanner, sensors etc.. were to be use and databases created and integrated.

We have seen how Theresa May has handled things sop far and if i were British it would not insure me at all that she has a handle on it.

 

[dublinbluenose]

Bertie Ahern wrote a piece about trusting what Theresa May has said, no hard border. He said that the proposal to use technology etc will do most of the job, but that some things we may just have to turn a blind eye to. This of course would never be acceptable to EU bureaucrats, but it’s pragmatic and sensible for that particular environment. The EU want to tie down this border between itself and an isolated ex member in a manner that is far more draconian than the porous borders to its Asian facing east or its African facing south. This is purely a negotiating point for the EU, anyone believing otherwise is well......

That may well be the case for the EU but it's a very real issue for Ireland. Particularly border counties. How do you stick a boarder across a farmers field? Not to mention customs checkpoints would be an obvious and real target for disadent republican headbangers.

Cheap UK products would flow across the boarder into Ireland.

 

[hullefc]

I’m not sure if you do this wilfully or just ignore what is said. The U.K. does not want and will not put up a hard border. That’s it. We will not do it. There will be no hard border on the U.K. side. Nothing.......the only people going on about borders are the EU......Ireland are arguing with the wrong people, or sorry, are arguing with the U.K. as a way of arguing with the EU......

The UK have said they will control their borders i.e to control people coming into the UK. The UK consists of England, Wales, Scotland and northern Ireland. As it stand at the moment any EU citizen can go to Ireland and travel to the north i.e the UK. To control immigration coming into the UK, that includes northern Ireland they will have to check the people crossing the 'border' between southern Ireland and the north. That means a border to check peoples' passports otherwise the UK are not controlling their borders - something the DUP have been saying i.e that would mean border posts. The DUP want the same deal for the north of Ireland as the rest of the UK, Brexit means Brexit.

I'm afraid what is said in public is not always what is said in private. Likewise, what one element of the government says is not always what another element says. In August May said that Irish passport holders in the north would be classed as Irish citizens and therefore have EU citizens rights and by implication would come under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. This was contradicted by Brokenshire and Davis who both said the opposite - to appease the DUP to keep them on board for the budget. Maybe they ignored 'what is said'. Didn't May say there would not be an election? Didn't Johnson say the EU could 'whistle' for money? Didn't Davis say ??? (take your pick) for only to say the opposite. Maybe they all 'ignored what is said'.

 

[dublinbluenose]

We had a customs union between the U.K. and Ireland before the EU existed. Why argue the point from a Brussels perspective, it’s not needed.........

Because now Ireland be negotiating trade deals as part of the EU and now the UK won't be.

 

[hullefc]

happy to hear you're come around on staying in the customs union then

The UK may well stay in the customs union so the island of Ireland issue - a border - would not arise. That way the UK government would say to the DUP that they have the same as the rest of the UK. It would save May politically allowing the DUP to save face. I suspect the extra cash she is proposing to pay is for staying in the customs union - similar to Norway.

 

[peteblue]

That may well be the case for the EU but it's a very real issue for Ireland. Particularly border counties. How do you stick a boarder across a farmers field? Not to mention customs checkpoints would be an obvious and real target for disadent republican headbangers.

Cheap UK products would flow across the boarder into Ireland.

It’s only the EU that is causing the problem. If cheap U.K. products flow into Ireland, or cheap Irish products flow into the U.K. , it has no effect upon Slovakia or Poland, it only affects our two countries and not the rest of the EU.....

 

[hullefc]

Because now Ireland be negotiating trade deals as part of the EU and now the UK won't be.

It is odd that the UK are wanting to negotiate a trade deal but rule out staying in the single market and the customs union that deal with trade. No joined up thinking.