gorgeousgeorgeEFC
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It is the EU that is pushing for a border on the island of Ireland.
Britain wants to keep it open.
Britain wants to keep it open.
Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit
- Thread starter Charlie Sweet
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gorgeousgeorgeEFC
Player Valuation: £25m
There would have to be exemptions for Irish citizens. You guys would have to be treated the same as UK citizens.
Complex issue.
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
But in a "No Deal" scenario the UK would be under WTO rules. As such if you have a free open border with the EU (via Ireland) then you'd have to offer the same open door policy say to dodgy electrical goods and counterfeit fashion from every third world country on Earth. Do you really think that's going to happen?
Let's be clear it is the UK causing a change to the current status quo so it needs to be the one to find a solution.
It is a complex issue which is why the EU membership provided such a convenient fudge. It allowed all sides to be satisfied. Unionists were still proud Brits but nationalists in Newry can go up and down to Dublin just as easy as they would to Derry.
The Clones to Cavan road for example is 6 miles long but there are 4 border crossings between the UK and Ireland. Are you suggesting passport checks at every one of those?!?!
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
There's a handy video of the border I mention above embedded in this BBC news story. I'm not sure how to extract the 1min video itself.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42188485
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42188485
Yeah that's the video i mentioned the other day but was too lazy to link haha!! Thanks for posting the link haha!! It's a very good piece explaining the whole reason why an actual border is difficult that's for sure.
Citizens rights due to dual passport holders.
Brexit: Northern Irish will still get EU citizens' rights, Government ...
"The position paper adds: “As long as Ireland remains a member of the EU, Irish citizenship also confers EU citizenship, with all the rights that go with this.
“This is true for the people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens – or who hold both British and Irish citizenship – as it is for Irish citizens in Ireland.
“The UK welcomes the commitment in the European Commission’s directives the these EU rights should continue to be respected following the UK’s departure from the EU: ‘Full account should be taken of the fact that Irish citizens residing in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens.
The position paper was also published as Theresa May wrote in the Belfast-based Irish News, adding citizenship rights were “at the heart of our approach”.
She added: “On the citizenship rights guaranteed by the Belfast agreement, our position is clear. Northern Ireland remains an integral part of the United Kingdom, but it is also the permanent birthright of the people of Northern Ireland to hold both British and Irish citizenship.
“This will remain the case, and people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will remain EU citizens.”
The guaranteeing of EU citizenship rights to those in the north, who hold an Irish passport, was given in the understanding that they would not be solely under UK law and would have similar rights as those in the south. Any law that is passed in the EU parliament will also be relevant to Irish citizens in the south, those in the north will also have the same rights as those in the south. If there is a dispute then it will be referred to the ECJ.
Further on the subject of the ECJ.
The Northern Ireland Act 1998 would have to be repealed or heavily amended. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 was brought in, in conjunction with a change in the Irish constitution and granted an legislative assembly to be elected by the people of Northern Ireland.
Section 6 Legislative competence.
(1)A provision of an Act is not law if it is outside the legislative competence of the Assembly.
(2)A provision is outside that competence if any of the following paragraphs apply—
(a)it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Northern Ireland, or confer or remove functions exerciseable otherwise than in or as regards Northern Ireland;
(b)it deals with an excepted matter and is not ancillary to other provisions (whether in the Act or previously enacted) dealing with reserved or transferred matters;
(c)it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights;
(d)it is incompatible with Community [F1EU] law;
(e)it discriminates against any person or class of person on the ground of religious belief or political opinion;
(f)it modifies an enactment in breach of section 7".
24Community law, Convention rights etc
(1)A Minister or Northern Ireland department has no power to make, confirm or approve any subordinate legislation, or to do any act, so far as the legislation or act—
(a)is incompatible with any of the Convention rights;
(b)is incompatible with Community law;
(c)discriminates against a person or class of person on the ground of religious belief or political opinion;
(d)in the case of an act, aids or incites another person to discriminate against a person or class of person on that ground; or
(e)in the case of legislation, modifies an enactment in breach of section 7.
(2)Subsection (1)(c) and (d) does not apply in relation to any act which is unlawful by virtue of the [1976 c. 25.] Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1976, or would be unlawful but for some exception made by virtue of Part V of that Act.
The UK government has not said anything about having to repeal the Northern Ireland Act 1989 during the debates about Brexit or during the negotiations. References to the ECJ and Community (EU) law was the basis for implementing the Good Friday Agreement and with it the Northern Ireland Assembly. Unless the government repeals the NI Act, to take out references to community law and the ECJ, then the NI assembly has to implement EU law and any laws it does pass has to comply wit EU law. Or direct rule is imposed permanently so the assembly doesn't meet and pass laws.
The UK government has said they want to control immigration into the UK. In that case there has to be a border on the island of Ireland, to control immigration into the north, implemented by the UK. This would be against the Good Friday Agreement.
The Good Friday Agreement guarantees Irish citizens the right to reside anywhere on the island of Ireland with free movement. That means there cannot be border checks on the island of Ireland, on the movement of Irish citizens as it would be against the Good Friday Agreement. As long as the Irish republic remains in the EU then any EU citizen has the right to travel to southern Ireland. Once there, they will be able to travel unhindered to anywhere on the island including the north. It will be in the north where passport checks will have to be done if an EU citizens wants to travel to the UK mainland. Also there are the all Ireland institutes that operate in the north and south that have free movement, a border would hinder their work.
The people of Northern Ireland voted for the Good Friday Agreement, and any changes to that will have to be voted on by the people. What this is more likely to lead to, is a push for a vote on unification if there are any changes to the Good Friday Agreement.
The Irish government has asked for a written guarantee from May that there will not be a border on the island of Ireland because she has allowed others, Brokenshire and Davis to say the opposite to what she has said. And it looks to the Irish government that May's reliance on the DUP means they are in full control of the border issue. It is make your mind up time for May. The only way out of this is for Northern Ireland to have special status within the EU and by implication staying in the single market and customs union. Something the DUP are venomously against and will probably lead them to bring down the government.
Ireland will have final say on progress of Brexit talks, says EU
Donald Tusk says that if Ireland cannot accept UK offer for its border, EU will not allow negotiations to move on to trade
Donald Tusk (right) with the Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar. Photograph: Aidan Crawley/EPA
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
@lisaocarroll
Friday 1 December 2017 17.53 GMTFirst published on Friday 1 December 2017 17.38 GMT
Ireland will have the final say on whether the UK has made sufficient progress in negotiations over the weekend to move to the next stage of Brexit talks, the president of the European council, Donald Tusk, has said.
After an hour-long meeting with Leo Varadkar in Dublin, Tusk said he had agreed that the taoiseach would be consulted fully before the guidelines for negotiations on Brexit transition arrangements would be circulated among the 27 member states.
Ireland, which is looking for written commitment that there will be no return to a hard border with Northern Ireland, has threatened to veto progress if Britain does not come up with a satisfactory and concrete offer by next Monday.
“Let me say very clearly. If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will also be unacceptable for the EU. I realise that for some British politicians this may be hard to understand,” said Tusk.
“But such is the logic behind the fact that Ireland is the EU member while the UK is leaving.
“This is why the key to the UK’s future lies – in some ways – in Dublin, at least as long as Brexit negotiations continue.”
He told reporters after the Dublin meeting that Theresa May had been asked to “put a final offer on the table” by 4 December in order to “ assess whether sufficient progress can be made at the upcoming European council” which meets on 13 and 14 December.
At that meeting the 27 member states will decide formally whether or not the “sufficient progress” test will be met on three issues: the financial settlement, EU citizens’ right and the Irish border.
“And we have agreed today that before proposing guidelines on transition and future relations to the leaders, I will consult the taoiseach if the UK offer is sufficient for the Irish government,” he added.
British and European Brexit task force officials are having “intense discussions” on how to reconcile the desire by all parties not to have a hard border with the legal requirement to have customs border checks once the UK departs the bloc.
There is no indication yet of a text that would be agreeable to the Irish, and Varadkar warned again on Friday that Ireland was prepared to prevent talks moving forward.
“I’m also prepared to stand firm with our partners if needs be, if the offer falls short on any of those issues including the Irish ones,” he said.
He reiterated that Ireland believed “the best and most obvious solution would be for the UK to remain in the customs union and the single market but as the British have ruled that out” it was seeking alternative “credible” and “concrete” solutions.
“We have to ensure we avoid the risk by any regulatory divergence,” he said.
He said he believed that “with the right engagement and the right political will” agreement could be reached. “The next few days will be crucial,” he added."
An interesting week-end in store, and I don't just mean the Huddersfield game.
Donald Tusk says that if Ireland cannot accept UK offer for its border, EU will not allow negotiations to move on to trade
Donald Tusk (right) with the Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar. Photograph: Aidan Crawley/EPA
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
@lisaocarroll
Friday 1 December 2017 17.53 GMTFirst published on Friday 1 December 2017 17.38 GMT
Ireland will have the final say on whether the UK has made sufficient progress in negotiations over the weekend to move to the next stage of Brexit talks, the president of the European council, Donald Tusk, has said.
After an hour-long meeting with Leo Varadkar in Dublin, Tusk said he had agreed that the taoiseach would be consulted fully before the guidelines for negotiations on Brexit transition arrangements would be circulated among the 27 member states.
Ireland, which is looking for written commitment that there will be no return to a hard border with Northern Ireland, has threatened to veto progress if Britain does not come up with a satisfactory and concrete offer by next Monday.
“Let me say very clearly. If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will also be unacceptable for the EU. I realise that for some British politicians this may be hard to understand,” said Tusk.
“But such is the logic behind the fact that Ireland is the EU member while the UK is leaving.
“This is why the key to the UK’s future lies – in some ways – in Dublin, at least as long as Brexit negotiations continue.”
He told reporters after the Dublin meeting that Theresa May had been asked to “put a final offer on the table” by 4 December in order to “ assess whether sufficient progress can be made at the upcoming European council” which meets on 13 and 14 December.
At that meeting the 27 member states will decide formally whether or not the “sufficient progress” test will be met on three issues: the financial settlement, EU citizens’ right and the Irish border.
“And we have agreed today that before proposing guidelines on transition and future relations to the leaders, I will consult the taoiseach if the UK offer is sufficient for the Irish government,” he added.
British and European Brexit task force officials are having “intense discussions” on how to reconcile the desire by all parties not to have a hard border with the legal requirement to have customs border checks once the UK departs the bloc.
There is no indication yet of a text that would be agreeable to the Irish, and Varadkar warned again on Friday that Ireland was prepared to prevent talks moving forward.
“I’m also prepared to stand firm with our partners if needs be, if the offer falls short on any of those issues including the Irish ones,” he said.
He reiterated that Ireland believed “the best and most obvious solution would be for the UK to remain in the customs union and the single market but as the British have ruled that out” it was seeking alternative “credible” and “concrete” solutions.
“We have to ensure we avoid the risk by any regulatory divergence,” he said.
He said he believed that “with the right engagement and the right political will” agreement could be reached. “The next few days will be crucial,” he added."
An interesting week-end in store, and I don't just mean the Huddersfield game.
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
Interesting to put it mildly! It's hard to see May can do anything other than convey special status on NI.
Hopefully the way forward is just for everyone to recognise that the current NI already has a special status in the UK!
That is what it will be but as long as it is not called customs union. Irish and DUP are in talks so to save the DUP's face, they will probably call it something else as Coveney says.
Brexit deal on border doable, says Ireland’s deputy prime minister
"Coveney also confirmed that behind-the-scenes conversations were being held with the DUP, which on Thursday threatened to pull the plug on its deal to prop up May’s Conservative government. “We have had discussions with the DUP … the DUP also want to look at a practical solution,” he said.
While British and EU teams expected to work into the weekend to find the “formula of words” satisfactory to all sides, Coveney indicated on Friday that Ireland was not looking for a written commitment to Northern Ireland remaining in the customs union. A new bespoke customs arrangement was possible, he added.
“I don’t mind what we can call it. We can call it a customs partnership, we can call it a grand trade partnership whatever you want to call it, but the bottom line is that if goods are going to have to move from one country’s union to another country’s union there will have to be customs checks somewhere, whether it is on a business premises or a border and we are trying to avoid that. And I think we can avoid it in the context of the negotiations,” said Coveney.
Trying to damp down the flames fuelled by accusations by the DUP that Ireland had acted “disgracefully”, Coveney declared: “There is not an anti-British bone in my body. Britain is a great country and we want a good deal. A good deal for Britain is a good deal for us, but Ireland will not be steamrolled on this issue.”
He described Ireland’s stance as firm and stubborn but fair, insisting its threat to veto progress to the next phase of Brexit talks was “not some kind of political bluff”.
The Tories are at the mercy of the DUP. But the DUP are at the mercy of the international agreement - GFA - that stipulates there is free movement of people on the island of Ireland but also that would extend to no border checking goods. If the DUP don't want a border poll then they will have to agree to a no border on the island of Ireland. They are probably getting grief from their constituent farmers on the border.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Ireland will have final say on progress of Brexit talks, says EU
Donald Tusk says that if Ireland cannot accept UK offer for its border, EU will not allow negotiations to move on to trade
Donald Tusk (right) with the Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar. Photograph: Aidan Crawley/EPA
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
@lisaocarroll
Friday 1 December 2017 17.53 GMTFirst published on Friday 1 December 2017 17.38 GMT
Ireland will have the final say on whether the UK has made sufficient progress in negotiations over the weekend to move to the next stage of Brexit talks, the president of the European council, Donald Tusk, has said.
After an hour-long meeting with Leo Varadkar in Dublin, Tusk said he had agreed that the taoiseach would be consulted fully before the guidelines for negotiations on Brexit transition arrangements would be circulated among the 27 member states.
Ireland, which is looking for written commitment that there will be no return to a hard border with Northern Ireland, has threatened to veto progress if Britain does not come up with a satisfactory and concrete offer by next Monday.
“Let me say very clearly. If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will also be unacceptable for the EU. I realise that for some British politicians this may be hard to understand,” said Tusk.
“But such is the logic behind the fact that Ireland is the EU member while the UK is leaving.
“This is why the key to the UK’s future lies – in some ways – in Dublin, at least as long as Brexit negotiations continue.”
He told reporters after the Dublin meeting that Theresa May had been asked to “put a final offer on the table” by 4 December in order to “ assess whether sufficient progress can be made at the upcoming European council” which meets on 13 and 14 December.
At that meeting the 27 member states will decide formally whether or not the “sufficient progress” test will be met on three issues: the financial settlement, EU citizens’ right and the Irish border.
“And we have agreed today that before proposing guidelines on transition and future relations to the leaders, I will consult the taoiseach if the UK offer is sufficient for the Irish government,” he added.
British and European Brexit task force officials are having “intense discussions” on how to reconcile the desire by all parties not to have a hard border with the legal requirement to have customs border checks once the UK departs the bloc.
There is no indication yet of a text that would be agreeable to the Irish, and Varadkar warned again on Friday that Ireland was prepared to prevent talks moving forward.
“I’m also prepared to stand firm with our partners if needs be, if the offer falls short on any of those issues including the Irish ones,” he said.
He reiterated that Ireland believed “the best and most obvious solution would be for the UK to remain in the customs union and the single market but as the British have ruled that out” it was seeking alternative “credible” and “concrete” solutions.
“We have to ensure we avoid the risk by any regulatory divergence,” he said.
He said he believed that “with the right engagement and the right political will” agreement could be reached. “The next few days will be crucial,” he added."
An interesting week-end in store, and I don't just mean the Huddersfield game.
I’m quite happy with this, Ireland has the final say. Just say it, deal or no deal, the choice is yours and the whole of the EU will back you up. Of course, if there is no deal then the rest of the EU will just drop you in it and try to do a different deal with the U.K. Ireland is being used, Ive said it before, this lot in Brussels couldn’t give a crap about Ireland, it’s all about political advantage. But hey, it’s your choice now, welcome to the big boys league......
There s a conspiracy theorist thread in the Ale House you know.
Did you just read the headline again and then want to reiterate how you called it ages ago?
What it really is is the EU standing by a member in the case of another member trying to force itself out.
Where you get the whole conspiracy that the "EU will drop Ireland in it" if they say no deal, is beyond anyone.
It's in the best interest of the EU that the Irish border issue is satisfied.
It was several weeks ago you went after Juncker or one of the EU members for claiming they were involved in the Good Friday agreement and now you are going after them because they wish to sit back and let Ireland lead the hash out of terms. I thought based on what you said previously they would like to be in the thick of it and claim victory.
Let's be clear here there is no way Ireland is being used or is a lamb being led to slaughter to suit an agenda. That's just conservative anti EU fear mongering
You twist your points to always make them look negative.
That or you love to just make stuff and state it being fact which suits the pro brexit anti EU agenda you have going on.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
I honestly fear that Ireland is just being used in the financial negotiations. The U.K. wishes only the best for Ireland because we are, irrespective of certain history, very close.......but, at the end of the day, whatever Ireland decides then Ireland will have to live with, just like us, and just like the rest of the EU......
abelard
Player Valuation: £35m
lol
I have no doubt that the EU would 'use Ireland'. Just as I have no doubt the Tories tried to bully the Irish and get political advantage over Ireland, in their negotiations with the EU. Initially, using the 'you need us more than we need you' bullying tactic the UK 'told' the Irish they would have to control immigrants coming to the island of Ireland, at Irish ports and airports, and potentially onward to the UK (Northern Ireland). The Irish told the Tories to do one because it would have effectively meant the Irish leaving the EU. When trying to bounce the Irish out of the EU didn't work they threw their dummy out and threatened a 'hard border' knowing this would affect the Irish economy and the northern Irish economy. The bullying Tories didn't care less about not only the republic of Ireland but also the north.
When it was pointed out to the imbecilic Tories that any border on the island of Ireland, would be against the Belfast Agreement - an international treaty signed by two sovereign governments and lodged with the UN - they were forced to change tact. They had to be told by the Irish and the EU what was in the GFA and what the implications were if they imposed a border, as the UK had threatened on the island of Ireland, to control immigration. It was like the Tories didn't even know what the treaty was all about. Not really surprising.
The Tories being in hock to the DUP politically is coming home to roost. The UK government can put a border on the island of Ireland, what the DUP wants and this would mean the GFA null and void. In other words the UK reneging on an international treaty. This will hardly go down well with not only the EU - the parliament - who the UK hope they can sign a trade agreement but the rest of the world, and in particular, the Irish presence in the US. Or the UK will have to agree to the north having special status - no borders - in effect remaining in the single market and the customs union (or something very similar). Something the DUP are against and have threatened to bring down the government over.
No wonder there is panic in the Tory ranks and this week-end will be very interesting. May has attempted to offer more money to the EU, than they need to pay, in an attempt to get the EU to turn their back on Ireland. Unfortunately, as of today the EU said it was up to Ireland. We will see.
The border issues is probably the most serious issue. If that can't be figured out Brexit cannot happen properly to be frank. How can you leave the EU and leave a gaping hole in your border with a sovereign land which is an EU member.
It basically means that NI was never thought of when they ploughed into the idea of leaving Europe.
Their solutions are insulting and not very well thought out. For instance - "Ireland should just leave and join us" or "it will stay the same" or more recently "there is a plan and we will use technology (without saying what that is)".
The EU are not using Ireland there is no need to because Britain has so far embarrassed itself in the eyes of Europe and probably anyone else in the world keeping track.
No plan, No idea how to solve complex issues and in denial about certain aspects of what is a certainty to happen.
- Status