Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[peteblue]

The key thing is that it would need co-operation from both sides of the border and the Norway article gives the example of police forces operating across each other’s border. There would also need to be some level of physical infrastructure on the approach roads to monitor approaching traffic. None of that is ever going to be acceptable in Ireland. That isn’t my border county bluster, it is a statement based on precedent and on the mood of Irish politics now.

I understand that, but as I’ve said before, the ‘big stuff’ is all electronically controlled from point of dispatch anyway. It’s only the little stuff that may cause a problem and tbh no one really gives a crap. Of course everyone will jump in saying that it’s incredibly important that the odd pig being moved could cause the downfall of the EU, but really it’s noise, probably less than any other EU border, and well worth ignoring for peace.......

 

[Armaghtoffee]

I understand that, but as I’ve said before, the ‘big stuff’ is all electronically controlled from point of dispatch anyway. It’s only the little stuff that may cause a problem and tbh no one really gives a crap. Of course everyone will jump in saying that it’s incredibly important that the odd pig being moved could cause the downfall of the EU, but really it’s noise, probably less than any other EU border, and well worth ignoring for peace.......

There would still be infrastructure Pete. Again, I refer to the Norway article as a working model unless you wish to explain why this one would differ from the one you envisage for here?

 

[SteveSC]

I understand that, but as I’ve said before, the ‘big stuff’ is all electronically controlled from point of dispatch anyway. It’s only the little stuff that may cause a problem and tbh no one really gives a crap. Of course everyone will jump in saying that it’s incredibly important that the odd pig being moved could cause the downfall of the EU, but really it’s noise, probably less than any other EU border, and well worth ignoring for peace.......

Little stuff not really. Here is an article about norway from this year

https://www.economist.com/news/brit...ide-customs-union-entails-hard-border-norways

It goes into more technical aspects about what goes on than the BBC did.

Lets not kid ourselves the border still has customs and officers and police to check vehicles.

They claim it is short term and eventually then pete you will be right it will simply be a central location and a few men and women manning it but right now they are working out various issues and scenarios.

Let me give you an example of a facility were the owners thought once we installed robots and automation with sensors and readers that he could fire his staff and downsize people. In fact they ended up hiring more and that was 3 years ago.

Because they were then finding new issues they didn't account for when laying it out for the planners of the project. All the "little" things added up to put a wrench in the wheel.

It takes a good 5 years to get something like a facility to 100% and with minimal staff. That's only if they stop trying to grow too and evolve as the more you add you go back to square one.

Now take these borders. In theory its simple but in reality is it though? Is it all just the little thing you say that causes them headaches? Nah the article above as did the BBC article suggests its a little more complex and could take years to be solid.

 

[peteblue]

There would still be infrastructure Pete. Again, I refer to the Norway article as a working model unless you wish to explain why this one would differ from the one you envisage for here?

I doubt there would be. There needs to be a reason for it. What happens today would just happen tomorrow, no one would care. The movement of major goods would be accommodated via technology, the movement of people ditto or treat them as visitors. This really is only a problem for those that wish it to be a problem.....it’s virtually acknowledged that a free trade deal will be done, all that’s left is arguments regarding financial services and fishing. This will be wrapped up and everyone will wonder what the big deal was.......

 

[Armaghtoffee]

I doubt there would be. There needs to be a reason for it. What happens today would just happen tomorrow, no one would care. The movement of major goods would be accommodated via technology, the movement of people ditto or treat them as visitors. This really is only a problem for those that wish it to be a problem.....it’s virtually acknowledged that a free trade deal will be done, all that’s left is arguments regarding financial services and fishing. This will be wrapped up and everyone will wonder what the big deal was.......

A bit harsh that Pete, any tinkering of the border proves to be problematic for Ireland and our desire to avoid this is not us just being problematic over Brexit. What you see as Ireland being manipulated by the EU is actually our politicians standing up for our own national interests. This is what we elected them to do.

 

[peteblue]

Little stuff not really. Here is an article about norway from this year

https://www.economist.com/news/brit...ide-customs-union-entails-hard-border-norways

It goes into more technical aspects about what goes on than the BBC did.

Lets not kid ourselves the border still has customs and officers and police to check vehicles.

They claim it is short term and eventually then pete you will be right it will simply be a central location and a few men and women manning it but right now they are working out various issues and scenarios.

Let me give you an example of a facility were the owners thought once we installed robots and automation with sensors and readers that he could fire his staff and downsize people. In fact they ended up hiring more and that was 3 years ago.

Because they were then finding new issues they didn't account for when laying it out for the planners of the project. All the "little" things added up to put a wrench in the wheel.

It takes a good 5 years to get something like a facility to 100% and with minimal staff. That's only if they stop trying to grow too and evolve as the more you add you go back to square one.

Now take these borders. In theory its simple but in reality is it though? Is it all just the little thing you say that causes them headaches? Nah the article above as did the BBC article suggests its a little more complex and could take years to be solid.

I agree it’s complicated but it’s not complex. This is just moving stuff around. The issue of a non visible border is the main issue. If the U.K. suggested that the ROI could be included within the EU and a border put in place between the ROI and EU in the English Channel, then eyebrows would be raised and arguments started, yet it’s exactly what the EU proposed but reversed. The U.K. is not some lawless country exporting all manner of drugs and crap to the EU, nor vice versa. We have been together for 40 years. What changes the day after Brexit ? Other than we’re not in their club, but guess what, the EU is not in our club either. This issue is bureaucratic in nature backed up by political gamesmanship. Those involved should be ashamed of themselves......

 

[peteblue]

A bit harsh that Pete, any tinkering of the border proves to be problematic for Ireland and our desire to avoid this is not us just being problematic over Brexit. What you see as Ireland being manipulated by the EU is actually our politicians standing up for our own national interests. This is what we elected them to do.

What interests ?, peace, trade, growth. What is being denied to them or yourself.......

 

[Joey66]

What bit is project fear Joey? Name one thing there thats not true..

Theresa May has said there will be no hard border. No cameras. Nothing.

She did mention cameras!
Are you smuggling illicit booze over the border Charlie boy is that your main concernlol

 

[SteveSC]

I agree it’s complicated but it’s not complex. This is just moving stuff around. The issue of a non visible border is the main issue. If the U.K. suggested that the ROI could be included within the EU and a border put in place between the ROI and EU in the English Channel, then eyebrows would be raised and arguments started, yet it’s exactly what the EU proposed but reversed. The U.K. is not some lawless country exporting all manner of drugs and crap to the EU, nor vice versa. We have been together for 40 years. What changes the day after Brexit ? Other than we’re not in their club, but guess what, the EU is not in our club either. This issue is bureaucratic in nature backed up by political gamesmanship. Those involved should be ashamed of themselves......

The Good Friday agreement makes it complex for a start. As in its stated there has to be no border.

Secondly computer systems like these are complex. They are complicated but also very complex. Please don't try tell someone in the said industry it isn't. Many factors make it complicated but using the technology can also be very complex. Especially if its not understood properly which the British government and brexit voters don't seem to understand.

With the electronic system you have to go on line to register your car and your purpose of visiting the country that has the borderless system. If Irish people are exempt from doing so how do you suggest they control their cars or their travel?

Then you have the customs portion. Again Irish people should not have to declare anything how do you separate say a dutch or German from an Irish person? Unless they are on a tour bus or their own car from their respected country.

Norway checks everyone coming into their country. There are no exceptions. There are no provisions in their system for any agreement like the GFA.

Moving stuff around is simply being disingenuous quite frankly.

Also what do you mean we have been together 40 years as in both countries being in the EU or Ireland and Britain being trade partners?

Once you leave there is no together because Ireland would still be in the EU. But sure any excuse for you to take a pop at the EU. Ireland isnt coming with you so accept that. We are a sovereign nation but we also have responsibilities and ties with the EU whtehr Britain likes it or not.

 

[peteblue]

The Good Friday agreement makes it complex for a start. As in its stated there has to be no border.

Secondly computer systems like these are complex. They are complicated but also very complex. Please don't try tell someone in the said industry it isn't. Many factors make it complicated but using the technology can also be very complex. Especially if its not understood properly which the British government and brexit voters don't seem to understand.

With the electronic system you have to go on line to register your car and your purpose of visiting the country that has the borderless system. If Irish people are exempt from doing so how do you suggest they control their cars or their travel?

Then you have the customs portion. Again Irish people should not have to declare anything how do you separate say a dutch or German from an Irish person? Unless they are on a tour bus or their own car from their respected country.

Norway checks everyone coming into their country. There are no exceptions. There are no provisions in their system for any agreement like the GFA.

Moving stuff around is simply being disingenuous quite frankly.

Also what do you mean we have been together 40 years as in both countries being in the EU or Ireland and Britain being trade partners?

Once you leave there is no together because Ireland would still be in the EU. But sure any excuse for you to take a pop at the EU. Ireland isnt coming with you so accept that. We are a sovereign nation but we also have responsibilities and ties with the EU whtehr Britain likes it or not.

I’ll take you last point first. Yes you are a sovereign nation and will do whatever the EU tells you. The U.K. has no interest in what the ROI wishes to do or not. Our interests are with NI which have responsibilities and ties with the U.K. whether the ROI and the EU likes it or not.

My 40 years comment was regarding the U.K. and EU as the U.K. and ROI have been trade partners for much longer.

Computer systems like this are not complex, they are complicated, complex is totally different. It just requires a full understanding of what you wish to do. The technology required is pretty basic tbh, as you should know......

 

[SteveSC]

I’ll take you last point first. Yes you are a sovereign nation and will do whatever the EU tells you. The U.K. has no interest in what the ROI wishes to do or not. Our interests are with NI which have responsibilities and ties with the U.K. whether the ROI and the EU likes it or not.

My 40 years comment was regarding the U.K. and EU as the U.K. and ROI have been trade partners for much longer.

Computer systems like this are not complex, they are complicated, complex is totally different. It just requires a full understanding of what you wish to do. The technology required is pretty basic tbh, as you should know......

Pretty basic huh haha!! Ok then Pete whatever you say. I forgot you were the expert in everything. Your lifelong experience as you have told us many times i should have remembered that.

Can't you ever admit that you don't know something and there are those on here that know better or do you simply like to argue just because. You have pulled that trick with just about everyone here who comes at you with facts and experience.

Finally England doesn't seem to care about NI interests though Pete that has been the point all along. Your government has show ignorance to the situation its put itself in with regards to NI and its people and a longstanding agreement signed by your government and the Irish government.

I'll ignore the part about IReland and the EU because simply you have missed the point. This is an issue about the people of the land of Ireland north and south being told everything will be ok and grand once Brexit happens. With no plan seemingly to deal with the GFA and the wishes of the people.

You just want to always resort to put blame on the EU and make it their thing.

 

[Ruairi77]

Computer systems like this are not complex, they are complicated, complex is totally different. It just requires a full understanding of what you wish to do. The technology required is pretty basic tbh, as you should know......

You reckon a system that tracks major logistics at source and follows goods and people across 200 international border crossings with minimal visibility, something that has never been done anywhere before, only requires basic technology?

 

[SteveSC]

You reckon a system that tracks major logistics at source and follows goods and people across 200 international border crossings with minimal visibility, something that has never been done anywhere before, only requires basic technology?

Yeah it was a surprise to me too as someone who deals with this kind of stuff day to day haha!!

If it were that "basic" and easy then alot of the worlds logistic and traffic issues would have been solved already haha!!

Easy and basic means cheap also this stuff is not that.

 

[peteblue]

Pretty basic huh haha!! Ok then Pete whatever you say. I forgot you were the expert in everything. Your lifelong experience as you have told us many times i should have remembered that.

Can't you ever admit that you don't know something and there are those on here that know better or do you simply like to argue just because. You have pulled that trick with just about everyone here who comes at you with facts and experience.

Finally England doesn't seem to care about NI interests though Pete that has been the point all along. Your government has show ignorance to the situation its put itself in with regards to NI and its people and a longstanding agreement signed by your government and the Irish government.

I'll ignore the part about IReland and the EU because simply you have missed the point. This is an issue about the people of the land of Ireland north and south being told everything will be ok and grand once Brexit happens. With no plan seemingly to deal with the GFA and the wishes of the people.

You just want to always resort to put blame on the EU and make it their thing.

I’m not trying to be clever, but as you said you were in the computer industry then you should know that putting in a border/trade/human control system does not require the boundaries of physics to be reinvented in order to manage this type of system. The technology is already available. It may not be off the shelf and indeed may not be available to many commercial fields, but believe me, the technology is available. I can’t do anything about my background and experience I’m afraid. If you wish me to dumb down then I’ll go to a different thread.

We do care about NI, it’s part of the U.K. . It’s true that we may show ignorance and be slow on the uptake, but when it comes to it, we do care. We all understand the GFA and especially the bit where the ROI formally accepted that NI was part of the U.K.

I don’t want to blame the EU for anything, it’s just that at the moment they are the ones who are making things unnecessarily difficult......

 

[peteblue]

You reckon a system that tracks major logistics at source and follows goods and people across 200 international border crossings with minimal visibility, something that has never been done anywhere before, only requires basic technology?

What technology do you think it requires.....