Current Affairs Fascism

[Barnfred 55]

People don't just become rascist/fascists it's a journey and one that can be very subtle gently path into...

I partly agree, but I don't believe this is the only path to racism/fascism. People can also be "turned" and also something may happen in their lives that switches a button.

Regardless that has nothing to do with the issue I was discussing with you. This being my belief that your broad brushstroke view of racism/fascism belittles the monstrosity that is true fascism, such as we saw in the mid 19th century.

 

[Ruairi77]

The rise of nationalism everywhere is horrifying.

I have zero doubt that the 2019 General Election was won in England by English Nationalists. I don't have any answers on how to fight against this rising tide, other than to try and not get drawn into those debates.

The rise of the right (and subsequently, far right) across the world is fueled by media moguls. The only way to stop the rot is to cut off the oxygen that's feeding the fire.
Murdock knows that whipping up nationalist hate sells newspapers and ad time. He has no qualms about radicalizing people and is not bothered that certain political entities have weaponized his platforms, as long as he makes money.
Look at the difference on Merseyside after a boycott of the sun. The hillsboro campaigners set a marvelous precedent on what can be achieved.
Unfortunately, we now have to be proactive rather than reactive.

 

[Barnfred 55]

The rise of nationalism everywhere is horrifying.

I have zero doubt that the 2019 General Election was won in England by English Nationalists. I don't have any answers on how to fight against this rising tide, other than to try and not get drawn into those debates.

I don't agree with you mate. I'm guessing your stance is to the far left of the Labour party. If so, your self belief in the socialist policies of the current Labour party is so strong that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and are therefore looking for reasons why you lost the election so comprehensively. The answer is simply that your party was split by Brexit, AND your policies are too far left wing for the majority of the electorate.

The Tories were definitely there for the taking this year. Labour had the opportunity to back the relatively soft Brexit deal on the table under Theresa May, but the leadership decided to play politics instead. Had they backed that deal and gone into a subsequent election with a more realistic manifesto that would have appealed more to the millions of floating voters, then I'm absolutely convinced Labour would have won the election, or at the very least been able to form a majority coalition with the SNP.

the people in this country had absolutely had enough of austerity and the Tories. I'm afraid Labour lost the last election rather than English Nationalism winning it.

I'm not saying English nationalism doesn't exist. I was shocked at the numbers who voted UKIP at the last Euro elections. But it isn't as high as you believe and certainly not high enough to force the outcome of a general election. Irish and Scottish nationalism is much more prevalent IMO.

 

[davek]

I don't agree with you mate. I'm guessing your stance is to the far left of the Labour party. If so, your self belief in the socialist policies of the current Labour party is so strong that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and are therefore looking for reasons why you lost the election so comprehensively. The answer is simply that your party was split by Brexit, AND your policies are too far left wing for the majority of the electorate.

The Tories were definitely there for the taking this year. Labour had the opportunity to back the relatively soft Brexit deal on the table under Theresa May, but the leadership decided to play politics instead. Had they backed that deal and gone into a subsequent election with a more realistic manifesto that would have appealed more to the millions of floating voters, then I'm absolutely convinced Labour would have won the election, or at the very least been able to form a majority coalition with the SNP.

the people in this country had absolutely had enough of austerity and the Tories. I'm afraid Labour lost the last election rather than English Nationalism winning it.

I'm not saying English nationalism doesn't exist. I was shocked at the numbers who voted UKIP at the last Euro elections. But it isn't as high as you believe and certainly not high enough to force the outcome of a general election. Irish and Scottish nationalism is much more prevalent IMO.

There is a nationalism on the march. It would be stupid to deny it. It comes in different shapes and forms, but the Brexit issue collected them all together and delivered the Tories an unlikely victory. The Tory Party is now the repository for extremne right wingers - they captured the constituency associations via Vote Leave and the vicious campaigns they waged against the 'one nation' Tories.

If the LP are in a state of disarray looking for a renewal, the Tory Party's race is run and their politics determined for generations to come...and it is a very sinister type of politics that could lead us almost anywhere.

 

[Barnfred 55]

There is a nationalism on the march. It would be stupid to deny it. It comes in different shapes and forms, but the Brexit issue collected them all together and delivered the Tories an unlikely victory. The Tory Party is now the repository for extremne right wingers - they captured the constituency associations via Vote Leave and the vicious campaigns they waged against the 'one nation' Tories.

If the LP are in a state of disarray looking for a renewal, the Tory Party's race is run and their politics determined for generations to come...and it is a very sinister type of politics that could lead us almost anywhere.

I don't agree Dave.

I've said in another post that, whilst I think Johnson is a cretin who will continue to commit gaffs almost every time he opens his gob, I also believe he is a traditionalist "one nation" Tory. And I believe he will also play up to his new found Labour leave support because he knows it will be a short lived reign if he doesn't.

Now I also concede that you could be right and I am indeed stupid as you suggest. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Number_25]

I don't agree with you mate. I'm guessing your stance is to the far left of the Labour party. If so, your self belief in the socialist policies of the current Labour party is so strong that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and are therefore looking for reasons why you lost the election so comprehensively. The answer is simply that your party was split by Brexit, AND your policies are too far left wing for the majority of the electorate.

I don't think you have a clue who I am, mate.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I don't think you have a clue who I am, mate.

Correct. I did say I was guessing.

But if you don't sit to the left of Labour I can't understand why you feel that way. As I said, I'm convinced a moderate Labour who went into the election without Brexit hanging over them would have come out on top.

Anyway no offence meant and I hope none was taken.

 

[sdk]

Irish and Scottish nationalism is much more prevalent IMO.

Which would suggest that both the Scottish vote against independence from the UK and the English vote for Brexit were contrary to prevailing national trends.

 

[davek]

The Nazi's got into power on issues of sovereignty and humiliation over the Treaty of Versailles. The Tories dusted off that trick from 1933 Germany and now they are the natural party of Britain's far right. That's what the Vote Leave capture of the Tory party has achieved. That's its legacy, not Brexit. When Brexit has been 'achieved' (in whatever bastardised fashion), it'll be a settled issue within a decade. However, the partial takeover of the country's most (electorally speaking) successful party by the fascist right is something that will lead to terrifying future consequences.

That clown Johnson and his fellow travellers have been the Trojan Horse that will bring to the fore genuine fascist individuals and policies to parliament.

In that respect, the LP has let the country down. We need right now a committed mass based anti-fascist party in parliament and in the country ready to take on fascism wherever it rears its ugly head. The country better hope and pray Labour get theor act together and behave in a unified, disciplined and determined manner for the next fews years or by the next election the Tories will be carrying out fully fledged extreme right wing / fascist policy and / or there will be a nationwide and well funded openly fascist party capable of taking seats in our parliament.

We're on the brink. Populism has unleashed sinister forces and Britain wont weather the storm unless the Tories and their fascist allies are fought tooth and nail every day of this next parliament.

 

[Ruairi77]

I've said in another post that, whilst I think Johnson is a cretin who will continue to commit gaffs almost every time he opens his gob, I also believe he is a traditionalist "one nation" Tory. And I believe he will also play up to his new found Labour leave support because he knows it will be a short lived reign if he doesn't.

Now I also concede that you could be right and I am indeed stupid as you suggest. Time will tell I guess.

johnson is a traditional nothing. He's a selfish opportunist who will point in what ever direction his bosses tell him if it suits his ego and pocket.

 

[Barnfred 55]

johnson is a traditional nothing. He's a selfish opportunist who will point in what ever direction his bosses tell him if it suits his ego and pocket.

I wouldn't argue that he's neither selfish nor an opportunist and probably a dozen other things much worse. And I believe he's also a bit of an enigma in that he's both a total buffoon but also very clever in a calculating way. He'll know that, in reality, his bosses are now the electorate. He's on the ultimate power journey and he'll understand that the only way for that to continue is to keep his bosses happy. That's why I think he'll do his utmost to deliver on his promises to the Labour Leave voters.

 

[davek]

I don't agree Dave.

I've said in another post that, whilst I think Johnson is a cretin who will continue to commit gaffs almost every time he opens his gob, I also believe he is a traditionalist "one nation" Tory. And I believe he will also play up to his new found Labour leave support because he knows it will be a short lived reign if he doesn't.

Now I also concede that you could be right and I am indeed stupid as you suggest. Time will tell I guess.

One nation Tory. They're just words.

He's a captive of the forces that got him into No.10. He'll go for a soft Brexit at his own peril because it'll risk a civil war in the Tory Party.

There'll be no investment in the north; there;ll be no investment anywhere else either. This lot are getting set to hurtle over the cliff with a no deal and the economic consequences will be horrific.

That's why there's a frenzied determination by the right wing owned media to get Starmer elected as Labour leader: they'll want to call on an Establishment second XI again as they did in the mid-90s if this turns into carnage.

 

[Khalekan]

There is a nationalism on the march. It would be stupid to deny it. It comes in different shapes and forms, but the Brexit issue collected them all together and delivered the Tories an unlikely victory. The Tory Party is now the repository for extremne right wingers - they captured the constituency associations via Vote Leave and the vicious campaigns they waged against the 'one nation' Tories.

If the LP are in a state of disarray looking for a renewal, the Tory Party's race is run and their politics determined for generations to come...and it is a very sinister type of politics that could lead us almost anywhere.

The Conservative Party as we have known it is dead.

It has morphed into the Brexit Party.

 

[davek]

The Conservative Party as we have known it is dead.

It has morphed into the Brexit Party.

...yes, and the seedbed for Brexit is nationalism, which, in turn, is the seedbed for fascism.

I dont think the people of this country are fully aware of the type of infiltration of Conservative Associations up and down the country. Those organisations decide on who become constituency candidates for parliament. They are ultra anti-immigrant, ultra anti-trade union, ultra anti-civil liberty.

The Tories were always the party for people holding those sentiments, of course, but when there is a complete collapse of the fascist right into Tory Party organisations as influential as that it adds a very sinister and unstable ingredient to that party. Without a shadow of a doubt, the Tories as presently constituted are (at the level of their grassroots organisation) a crypto-fascist political party.

 

[Aberblue]

...yes, and the seedbed for Brexit is nationalism, which, in turn, is the seedbed for fascism.

I dont think the people of this country are fully aware of the type of infiltration of Conservative Associations up and down the country. Those organisations decide on who become constituency candidates for parliament. They are ultra anti-immigrant, ultra anti-trade union, ultra anti-civil liberty.

The Tories were always the party for people holding those sentiments, of course, but when there is a complete collapse of the fascist right into Tory Party organisations as influential as that it adds a very sinister and unstable ingredient to that party. Without a shadow of a doubt, the Tories as presently constituted are (at the level of their grassroots organisation) a crypto-fascist political party.

It's funny, there's probably a forum somewhere on which an anti-davek says something like,

"I dont think the people of this country are fully aware of the type of infiltration of Constituency Labour Parties up and down the country. Those organisations decide on who become constituency candidates for parliament. They are ultra anti-capitalist, ultra anti-conservative, ultra anti-free speech.

Labour were always the party for people holding those sentiments, of course, but when there is a complete collapse of the Communist left into Labour Party organisations as influential as that it adds a very sinister and unstable ingredient to that party. Without a shadow of a doubt, Labour as presently constituted are (at the level of their grassroots organisation) a crypto-communist political party."