Current Affairs Fascism

[davek]

It's funny, there's probably a forum somewhere on which an anti-davek says something like,

"I dont think the people of this country are fully aware of the type of infiltration of Constituency Labour Parties up and down the country. Those organisations decide on who become constituency candidates for parliament. They are ultra anti-capitalist, ultra anti-conservative, ultra anti-free speech.

Labour were always the party for people holding those sentiments, of course, but when there is a complete collapse of the Communist left into Labour Party organisations as influential as that it adds a very sinister and unstable ingredient to that party. Without a shadow of a doubt, Labour as presently constituted are (at the level of their grassroots organisation) a crypto-communist political party."

Oh that's very clever. I see what you did there.

YAWN.

 

[Cool_Blue]

Irish and Scottish nationalism is much more prevalent IMO.

But according to many on here, these seem to be things to be applauded. Bizarre.

 

[Bluerover]

...yes, and the seedbed for Brexit is nationalism, which, in turn, is the seedbed for fascism.

I dont think the people of this country are fully aware of the type of infiltration of Conservative Associations up and down the country. Those organisations decide on who become constituency candidates for parliament. They are ultra anti-immigrant, ultra anti-trade union, ultra anti-civil liberty.

The Tories were always the party for people holding those sentiments, of course, but when there is a complete collapse of the fascist right into Tory Party organisations as influential as that it adds a very sinister and unstable ingredient to that party. Without a shadow of a doubt, the Tories as presently constituted are (at the level of their grassroots organisation) a crypto-fascist political party.

Overall I would concur although you might have opened by saying the seedbed of Brexit is a very narrow type of xenophobic nationalism that wants to exclude rather than include others.

I am proud of my national and cultural identity and history but am open to welcome others. I think much of the Brexit and the BJ vote was pushed by the narrow xenophobia that I described above.

However not all nationalism is bad.

 

[davek]

Overall I would concur although you might have opened by saying the seedbed of Brexit is a very narrow type of xenophobic nationalism that wants to exclude rather than include others.

I am proud of my national and cultural identity and history but am open to welcome others. I think much of the Brexit and the BJ vote was pushed by the narrow xenophobia that I described above.

However not all nationalism is bad.

Yes, some strands of nationalism have been progressive: the national liberation movements against imperialism (Irish nationalism being one of the oldest of all, in that respect).

However, I'm an internationalist. Whatever the initial impulses of nationalist movements they tend to end up being chauvinist and exclusive.

 

[toffee9]

Yes, some strands of nationalism have been progressive: the national liberation movements against imperialism (Irish nationalism being one of the oldest of all, in that respect).

However, I'm an internationalist. Whatever the initial impulses of nationalist movements they tend to end up being chauvinist and exclusive.

I was under the impression that the Irish nationalists conspired with the Germans in WW1?

 

[davek]

I was under the impression that the Irish nationalists conspired with the Germans in WW1?

Did they? In what shape or form did that conspiracy take?

 

[PSB1]

Did they? In what shape or form did that conspiracy take?

A request for rifles which were due to be landed shortly before the Easter Uprising, 1916. Roger Casement was arrested and later executed as the scheme failed. He had, before that, tried to recruit an "Irish Brigade" from among the prisoners of war in Germany from earlier in the Great War.

 

[davek]

A request for rifles which were due to be landed shortly before the Easter Uprising, 1916. Roger Casement was arrested and later executed as the scheme failed. He had, before that, tried to recruit an "Irish Brigade" from among the prisoners of war in Germany from earlier in the Great War.

There were probably 10x more Irish Nationalists in the British Army. Irish nationalism was not just about Fenianism at that time. Most would have been intent on pressing for Home Rule.

The Boer War saw Irish Brigades fighting Irish soldiers.

It's too complex a subject to make blanket remarks.

 

[davids]

There were probably 10x more Irish Nationalists in the British Army. Irish nationalism was not just about Fenianism at that time. Most would have been intent on pressing for Home Rule.

The Boer War saw Irish Brigades fighting Irish soldiers.

It's too complex a subject to make blanket remarks.

Too true Dave,my Grandfather fought as a Scots Guardsman,go figure.

 

[davek]

Too true Dave,my Grandfather fought as a Scots Guardsman,go figure.

I think pre-WWI there'd have been a view among many nationalists that the best way of underscoring how London had nothing to fear from Home Rule was to stand together with them against German imperialism. The British (English in effect) had always seen Ireland as a back door threat to them that could be used by Spain, France, Germany.

Of course, the reaction to the Easter Rising changed the situation completely.

 

[davids]

I think pre-WWI there'd have been a view among many nationalists that the best way of underscoring how London had nothing to fear from Home Rule was to stand together with them against German imperialism. The British (English in effect) had always seen Ireland as a back door threat to them that could be used by Spain, France, Germany.

Of course, the reaction to the Easter Rising changed the situation completely.

Soldiering for many was just a job and you signed up for whoever was hiring at the time,nationality and the regiment weren't really an issue when you had a family to feed.

 

[PSB1]

There were probably 10x more Irish Nationalists in the British Army. Irish nationalism was not just about Fenianism at that time. Most would have been intent on pressing for Home Rule.

The Boer War saw Irish Brigades fighting Irish soldiers.

It's too complex a subject to make blanket remarks.

History has a way of sharpening definitions. Most British, would fail to see a distinction between Nationalism and Republicanism. I doubt that the IRB or IRA made that mistake. Revolutionary elements in Ireland were quite big on flyposting appeals to Irish men to fight the English rather than go to Flanders, as you may well know. Large numbers of men did, however, join up (there was never conscription in Ireland) and died over there. It's only in fairly recent years that there's been an acknowledgement in Ireland of their loss.
'England's trouble is Ireland's opportunity' and 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' were ideas which permeated Nationalism and had some, probably immeasurable, influence, don't you agree?

 

[davek]

History has a way of sharpening definitions. Most British, would fail to see a distinction between Nationalism and Republicanism. I doubt that the IRB or IRA made that mistake. Revolutionary elements in Ireland were quite big on flyposting appeals to Irish men to fight the English rather than go to Flanders, as you may well know. Large numbers of men did, however, join up (there was never conscription in Ireland) and died over there. It's only in fairly recent years that there's been an acknowledgement in Ireland of their loss.
'England's trouble is Ireland's opportunity' and 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' were ideas which permeated Nationalism and had some, probably immeasurable, influence, don't you agree?

In any movement you'll have schisms, Irish nationalism is no different. That's why I stated it's too complex to talk in terms of an Irish nationalism that conspired.

But w're getting away form the point here: fasicsm. Ireland (and again to underline it's nationalist complexity) had its fascist as well as socialist and moderate strand. The Blueshirts were an offshoot of Irish nationalism (they were a tributary of the modern day Fine Gael Party). Which was my point to @Bluerover: that though some forms of nationalism can be revolutionary rather than reactionary, you cant put a lid on it spinning off to fascism...and there's a lesson there to learn for the Brexiteers, who are seen as a fertile demographic for Britian's fascist groups to exploit.

 

[catblue]

I agree with Davek, the history between Ireland and Britain is indeed very complex and extremely emotive. My grandfather fought in World War one with the English Army and later fought against the Black and Tans in Ireland... that must have been above strange a thing to happen to any squaddie..
The point on Fascism is simple enough to me at present, it's on the rise again. Fear from the outside and fear mongering Politicians are using Nationalistic bombast to further right wing agendas literally all over the world. Very serious issue and one I would put right beside Global warming in needing to be dealt with ASAP..

 

[Barnfred 55]

One nation Tory. They're just words.

He's a captive of the forces that got him into No.10. He'll go for a soft Brexit at his own peril because it'll risk a civil war in the Tory Party.

There'll be no investment in the north; there;ll be no investment anywhere else either. This lot are getting set to hurtle over the cliff with a no deal and the economic consequences will be horrific.

That's why there's a frenzied determination by the right wing owned media to get Starmer elected as Labour leader: they'll want to call on an Establishment second XI again as they did in the mid-90s if this turns into carnage.

As I said. Time will tell as to which of us is correct.

At least I admit that my posts are just an opinion. You write as if your words constitute fact which reveals a level of arrogance which is quite galling.

I'm not a Tory and I'm certainly not an admirer of Johnson, but I do believe him to be pragmatic and hope he'll honour the promises made during the election campaign, because quite frankly the country and the North in particular, desperately needs the investment. But I get the impression that people like you would prefer to see the people suffer just so you can say you were right about Johnson being a liar.