Current Affairs Fascism

[Disgruntledgoat]

I've always felt that fascism is a state of mind rather than a definite political party affiliation, though of course neo - fascist organisations do exist in this and - I guess - every country.

But this just allows people (not you necessarily) to say things they dont like are "fascist". Its the Billy Bragg definition of fascism.

Words have meanings and Fascism is a very specific, nasty and evil, political system. It is built on extreme nationalism, economic centralism, forced adherence to a cultural identity and a repression of democratic and civil rights.

Of course you can be a fascist without calling yourself one but to just say every body we disagree with is a fascist dilutes the word and makes it meaningless for when actual Fascists come along.

However, one of the strengths of the British public is that our reaction to authoritarianism is to laugh at it.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I've always felt that fascism is a state of mind rather than a definite political party affiliation, though of course neo - fascist organisations do exist in this and - I guess - every country.

Yes indeed, think if you identify yourself as White Anglo Saxon, blurt out island nation rhetoric your well on your way to being what it means to be consumed British fascism, economic social decision will be firmly based in fascism ideology. If you happen not to fit in this atypical white Anglo Saxon definition, better watch out.

 

[PSB1]

But this just allows people (not you necessarily) to say things they dont like are "fascist". Its the Billy Bragg definition of fascism.

Words have meanings and Fascism is a very specific, nasty and evil, political system. It is built on extreme nationalism, economic centralism, forced adherence to a cultural identity and a repression of democratic and civil rights.

Of course you can be a fascist without calling yourself one but to just say every body we disagree with is a fascist dilutes the word and makes it meaningless for when actual Fascists come along.

However, one of the strengths of the British public is that our reaction to authoritarianism is to laugh at it.

My point is that fascism isn't necessarily a political system. Yes, of course, there will always be lazy / ill - informed people who use it as a throwaway term (one need only read a few pages of the Scummy Tories or General Election threads to note the truth of that). It seems to me, however, that its limit to membership of a particular party helps excuse those with fascistic views who use the escape clause, "Of course, I'm not a member of the BNP (or any of its hydra like entities) to pretend they're part of mainstream debate.

Some of the most unapologetic fascists I've come across are liberals and socialists. The closed minds, insistence on adherence to their way of 'thinking' and substitution of some nebulous world citizenship instead of national citizenship have me tapping my foot to the inward playing of the Horst Wessel lied.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

point is that fascism isn't necessarily a political system

They are symbiotic...

 

[PSB1]

They are symbiotic...

Yes, they can be, you're right. Certainly one doesn't find organised fascism without the traits I mentioned. I happen to believe, however, one can all too easily find the traits without a party membership card! Neither is it confined to angry white men. Its roots are equally well established among all peoples whatever their colour. The treatment of gay men in the West Indies, Uganda, Kenya, Zambia Saudi etc etc bear ample testimony to this fact.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Yes, they can be, you're right. Certainly one doesn't find organised fascism without the traits I mentioned. I happen to believe, however, one can all too easily find the traits without a party membership card! Neither is it confined to angry white men. Its roots are equally well established among all peoples whatever their colour. The treatment of gay men in the West Indies, Uganda, Kenya, Zambia Saudi etc etc bear ample testimony to this fact.

Well yes its why fascism is a fabled fallacy, because once goals are achieved the rest of the world is simply not the same, then they embark on making it the same.

 

[PSB1]

Well yes its why fascism is a fabled fallacy, because once goals are achieved the rest of the world is simply not the same, then they embark on making it the same.

How horribly true that is.

 

[Barnfred 55]

But this just allows people (not you necessarily) to say things they dont like are "fascist". Its the Billy Bragg definition of fascism.

Words have meanings and Fascism is a very specific, nasty and evil, political system. It is built on extreme nationalism, economic centralism, forced adherence to a cultural identity and a repression of democratic and civil rights.

Of course you can be a fascist without calling yourself one but to just say every body we disagree with is a fascist dilutes the word and makes it meaningless for when actual Fascists come along.

However, one of the strengths of the British public is that our reaction to authoritarianism is to laugh at it.

I agree with all that mate, but there are many in here who wouldn't. Your interpretation of Fascism is considered very much old hat by many, who would argue that it has a much wider meaning that would certainly encompass nationalism too.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I agree with all that mate, but there are many in here who wouldn't. Your interpretation of Fascism is considered very much old hat by many, who would argue that it has a much wider meaning that would certainly encompass nationalism too.

Closely related always have been, they are best viewed on a spectrum. And labels can very be misleading, purposely so much of the time, I would have little ruck interpreting some one as racist who viewed themselves as nationalist, its a loaded term and anyone using that term really needs to explain their understanding and use of it.
There is big difference from Scottish/Welsh nationalism to those who may be using British/English nationalism to define their political beliefs , which often falls into ethnic nationalism, being ethnic nationalist does not necessarily mean you a fascist/racists however, one does not exits without other, so up to the user to explain their use of these said terms.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Closely related always have been, they are best viewed on a spectrum. And labels can very be misleading, purposely so much of the time, I would have little ruck interpreting some one as racist who viewed themselves as nationalist, its a loaded term and anyone using that term really needs to explain their understanding and use of it.
There is big difference from Scottish/Welsh nationalism to those who may be using British/English nationalism to define their political beliefs , which often falls into ethnic nationalism, being ethnic nationalist does not necessarily mean you a fascist/racists however, one does not exits without other, so up to the user to explain their use of these said terms.

I would add another term to the discussion, and that is patriotism. A lot of people who consider themselves Nationalists are really just patriotic and perhaps don't fully understand all the different nuances of Nationalism.

Whilst I agree when viewed on a spectrum, the defining lines between Fascism and certain forms of Nationalism can become blurred, personally I would prefer to separate the two as I think it's important that we don't lose sight of just how repugnant true Fascism is. By that I mean the totalitarian, dictatorial and repressive regimes prevalent throughout twentieth century Europe.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I would add another term to the discussion, and that is patriotism. A lot of people who consider themselves Nationalists are really just patriotic and perhaps don't fully understand all the different nuances of Nationalism.

Whilst I agree when viewed on a spectrum, the defining lines between Fascism and certain forms of Nationalism can become blurred, personally I would prefer to separate the two as I think it's important that we don't lose sight of just how repugnant true Fascism is. By that I mean the totalitarian, dictatorial and repressive regimes prevalent throughout twentieth century Europe.

There is line that is crossed, and that's when you start demeaning and believing those outside your chosen nationalism, patriotism are just lesser.
The charity begins at home mantra is a good indicator of fledging fascists/racists, not yet met anyone face to face who uses this term who is not.

 

[Barnfred 55]

There is line that is crossed, and that's when you start demeaning and believing those outside your chosen nationalism, patriotism are just lesser.
The charity begins at home mantra is a good indicator of fledging fascists/racists, not yet met anyone face to face who uses this term who is not.

I don't necessarily agree with the charity begins at home mantra. But my argument with that comment is that I doubt very much that any fledgling fascist/racist even has the word "charity" in their vocabulary.

My point is that you are so free with your racist/fascist nametag that you dilute the importance of real fascism/racism.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I don't necessarily agree with the charity begins at home mantra. But my argument with that comment is that I doubt very much that any fledgling fascist/racist even has the word "charity" in their vocabulary.

My point is that you are so free with your racist/fascist nametag that you dilute the importance of real fascism/racism.

People don't just become rascist/fascists it's a journey and one that can be very subtle gently path into...

 

[magicjuan]

There is line that is crossed, and that's when you start demeaning and believing those outside your chosen nationalism, patriotism are just lesser.
The charity begins at home mantra is a good indicator of fledging fascists/racists, not yet met anyone face to face who uses this term who is not.

That applies to those within a chosen nationalism too, the sense of superiority doesn't just apply to 'outsiders' alone, it's one of thecreasons Hitler believed the British to be kin and ready to accept fascism, smothered as they are in a strengthening class system.

 

[Number_25]

The rise of nationalism everywhere is horrifying.

I have zero doubt that the 2019 General Election was won in England by English Nationalists. I don't have any answers on how to fight against this rising tide, other than to try and not get drawn into those debates.