Current Affairs EU In or Out

[JonS]

I'm just not having that. The £360M a week to the NHS was a game-changing whopper. I'm absolutely convinced that it fooled lots of waiverers into voting Brexit. The irony is, not only was it a barefaced lie but the perpetrators have vested interests in the creeping privatisation of the NHS.

Don't underestimate how angry the 48% are about what happened and the way we were all stitched up by a bunch of opportunists.

The NHS one was a bad one I agree. Regarding the Farage "breaking point" poster, my view is that what was racist about it was that it focussed on people with brown faces (immigrants from outside Europe). I don't think there was anything wrong or racist though by saying that the country is at breaking point because of the number of immigrants we have had (we may be near breaking point, we may not but we have had a huge increase in the countries population with pressure on housing, services and schools and people are not necessarily racist for believing or voting for that)

 

[Clint Planet]

Brexit didn't win because of the £360 million fib, or Farage's racism, or because the public liked Boris or Gove more than Dave.

Brexit won because there are obvious and very serious problems with how the EU is set up, what it is doing now and what it is likely to do in the future; that is why the Remain campaign was a mix of threats of what they would do to us if we left and "Well, we aren't part of that bit of it (insert Schengen / the Eurozone / agreed immigration policy here) anyway".

Sorry, but I simply don't agree. Of course the EU is flawed but then so is Westminster and our laughable electoral system. Yes, it is bureaucratic but so is Westminster. That massive NHS whopper and that racist UKIP poster were a disgrace though and I'm sure they made the difference. A new low in British politics.

 

[Clint Planet]

The NHS one was a bad one I agree. Regarding the Farage "breaking point" poster, my view is that what was racist about it was that it focussed on people with brown faces (immigrants from outside Europe). I don't think there was anything wrong or racist though by saying that the country is at breaking point because of the number of immigrants we have had

It was cynical and deceitful and, yes, bloody racist, not to say inaccurate seeing as EU membership has no bearing on how many non-EU refugees we admit.

Poor, poor stuff. Shameful.

 

[Old Blue 2]

But with the referendum asking in or out and not specifying who, how or what do you not think the public and parliament itself is within its rights to ask questions, debate, and draw judgements on what evolves, and ultimately if the final offer is not beneficial the right not to accept it?

Esk,

Do you REALLY think you can derail me with the above. My reply was to your point saying the minute details of leaving were not on the ballot paper.

As I have said many times, the Referendum was the voters of this country giving direction as to what they wanted, in or out. Do you actually believe that every single voter needed to be involved in the complete mechanism from start to finish with leaving the EU if the vote was out? Do you really believe that whole shebang should have been on the ballot paper?

You are barking up the wrong tree, and misleading this thread. NO ONE, not even the most skilled negotiators, can predict what the scenario will be in 5, 10, 20 or more years, so to say "...ultimately if the final offer is not beneficial the right not to accept it?..." is a cock that will not fight (to quote a legal term to you - I'll give you the full details if you wish me to do so).

Obfuscation rules with some...

 

[bflefc]

I'm embarrassed to be British at times.

Oh please just belt up - you drone on like a dripping tap. Why can't you get over this referendum going against your wishes (Heaven forbid), and stop being such a drama queen?

You're as bad as Nicola Sturgeon, constantly whining on about their referendum and trying to wriggle the goalposts to create a flimsy new opening.

 

[Tubey]

Esk,

Do you REALLY think you can derail me with the above. My reply was to your point saying the minute details of leaving were not on the ballot paper.

As I have said many times, the Referendum was the voters of this country giving direction as to what they wanted, in or out. Do you actually believe that every single voter needed to be involved in the complete mechanism from start to finish with leaving the EU if the vote was out? Do you really believe that whole shebang should have been on the ballot paper?

You are barking up the wrong tree, and misleading this thread. NO ONE, not even the most skilled negotiators, can predict what the scenario will be in 5, 10, 20 or more years, so to say "...ultimately if the final offer is not beneficial the right not to accept it?..." is a cock that will not fight (to quote a legal term to you - I'll give you the full details if you wish me to do so).

Obfuscation rules with some...

Up there with the worst posts I've ever read on GOT.

For what it's worth, you contradicted yourself with the two words highlighted.

The country gave non-binary direction, not legally binding orders.

 

[bflefc]

But with the referendum asking in or out and not specifying who, how or what do you not think the public and parliament itself is within its rights to ask questions, debate, and draw judgements on what evolves, and ultimately if the final offer is not beneficial the right not to accept it?

Was there anything on the ballot paper that described who, how or what any new arrangement to remain would appear like (and I'm not referring to the flimsy lines being spun by Cameron when he came back from his shuttle-diplomacy with barely anything tangible to make a difference to the status quo)?

It was a straightforward question, with 2 ever-so-straightforward options for adults to make.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

Was there anything on the ballot paper that described who, how or what any new arrangement to remain would appear like (and I'm not referring to the flimsy lines being spun by Cameron when he came back from his shuttle-diplomacy with barely anything tangible to make a difference to the status quo)?

It was a straightforward question, with 2 ever-so-straightforward options for adults to make.

Which is exactly why it needs full parliamentary debate with the facts known.

 

[tsubaki]

Sorry, but I simply don't agree. Of course the EU is flawed but then so is Westminster and our laughable electoral system. Yes, it is bureaucratic but so is Westminster. That massive NHS whopper and that racist UKIP poster were a disgrace though and I'm sure they made the difference. A now low in British politics.

That was nowhere near a low in British politics - compared to Bermondsey '83 or Smethwick '64 it was tiny in its offensiveness. As for the fibs making the difference, that does miss the point in that it avoids acknowledging the widespread disenchantment with the EU in many of its constituent nations:

If the EU was run by competent, honest people it would be trying to deal with all that resentment.

 

[bflefc]

Which is exactly why it needs full parliamentary debate with the facts known.

No it doesn't - we had all that pre-referendum campaign, and people then went to the ballot box to cast their vote.

The arrogance of some people in response to recent elections/referendums is alarming, and worries me a lot more than the outcome of those votes themselves (of which some did alarm me, but I respect democracy).

 

[Old Blue 2]

I'm just not having that. The £360M a week to the NHS was a game-changing whopper. I'm absolutely convinced that it fooled lots of waiverers into voting Brexit. The irony is, not only was it a barefaced lie but the perpetrators have vested interests in the creeping privatisation of the NHS.

Don't underestimate how angry the 48% are about what happened and the way we were all stitched up by a bunch of opportunists.

I posted this a few days ago, but I'll post it again, just for your benefit because you may have missed it with this thread going along so fast. From one of the leaflets that came through the door:
"FACT: Britain's official bill for EU membership is £19 billion per year or £350 million every week - the cost of a new hospital.
You have to decise whether what we get back from the EU is worth this"

I have replicated it exactly. It clearly shows a comparison, NOT that £350 million a week would go to the NHS. I can scan the page into my PC and put it up in this thread if you wish.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Was there anything on the ballot paper that described who, how or what any new arrangement to remain would appear like (and I'm not referring to the flimsy lines being spun by Cameron when he came back from his shuttle-diplomacy with barely anything tangible to make a difference to the status quo)?

It was a straightforward question, with 2 ever-so-straightforward options for adults to make.

I reckon Cameron made it a straight forward in or out on the ballot paper because he thought the remain vote was going to piss it.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

No it doesn't - we had all that pre-referendum campaign, and people then went to the ballot box to cast their vote.

The arrogance of some people in response to recent elections/referendums is alarming, and worries me a lot more than the outcome of those votes themselves (of which some did alarm me, but I respect democracy).

So your point is that we voted for something ambiguous now let's crack on and let it be done without the usual levels of parliamentary scrutiny and without a second glance at our own constitution.

Right.

 

[Tubey]

I posted this a few days ago, but I'll post it again, just for your benefit because you may have missed it with this thread going along so fast. From one of the leaflets that came through the door:
"FACT: Britain's official bill for EU membership is £19 billion per year or £350 million every week - the cost of a new hospital.
You have to decise whether what we get back from the EU is worth this"

I have replicated it exactly. It clearly shows a comparison, NOT that £350 million a week would go to the NHS. I can scan the page into my PC and put it up in this thread if you wish.

You can post it all you want, doesn't make it true.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

 

[bflefc]

I reckon Cameron made it a straight forward in or out on the ballot paper because he thought the remain vote was going to piss it.

Quite possible the case; but that shouldn't change anything. The campaigns were waged and the votes cast - we all need to get over it. If not, we're no worse than the petulant SNP bleating on about independence.