Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Who pays for these tax cuts given we run a defect?

Given we have a skills shortage and (if you believe the figures) near full employment how will the companies that come here 'in droves' find suitable employees?

Who's paid for the tax concessions before now?

The breaks the rich & the corportates have had, have come from the poorest in society. Those same rich & corporates have been allowed to further ingratiate/indulge themselves by employing whoever they want making them more (Tax-avoided) money while paying a lower wage.

Remove or hinder that liberty indulgence away from them, and what follows? They HAVE to employ british nationals AND pay them a decent wage AND reinstate their rights/working practices.


'Skills shortages'? FFS Nurses are having to pay for their own training. People are being made to work for their dole stacking shelves as an 'apprenticeship'. The last Govt immediately scrapped the TEC's & funding the minute they got in; claiming they were 'costing too much' . Therefore people couldn't get the job if they didn't have the ticket, and they couldn't get the ticket until they had the job.

Meanwhile parasites like a4e were taking that money for training, and stopping people's dole because they couldn't get the job because they wouldn't fund the training until they had the job.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

I'm not sure why I'm surprised you don't know? Not like you've never endorsed the work for your dole mantra before, is it? Take a look at the post I replied to when I gave that answer.

I'll give you a clue....'Companies this, companies that...'

I'm afraid that's largely unspecific rhetoric. Where are there examples of this happening? Show me the evidence.

Really? Ok then...

Lazy John Bull Englishman

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521076/The-bosses-love-jobs-Brits-werent-LAZY.html

UK govt plans to stop agencies recruiting exclusively from abroad

http://www.clarkslegal.com/Legal_Up...p_temp_agencies_recruiting_exclusively_abroad

Job snobs...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/12/poundland-legal-challenge-cait-reilly-interview


Need I show more Bruce? I could give you more examples if you want...And, at one point or another in either this, or other threads, you've sympathised with the rhetoric, or openly endorsed all of these idealogies policies. However, I just can't be arsed getting to the stage where I have to rummage through the vaults, but those who can remember will back me up on this.

 

[Anders_Limpar]

Exactly if May makes a mess of leaving the EU in a GE the people can vote her out!

Don't see why they can't go off and sort a deal, present to the county and then see if we still like the idea of leaving or not...

Don't understand why this seems to freak leave voters out so much - if they are that confident that leaving is such a wonderful idea then further detail should just help their cause.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Heaven forbid one should have principles and not follow the herd.

Principles? - Well...I'd best save meself & everyone else the time it'd take me to write about your definition/interpretation of the word. Besides, I've already done half of it anyroad.

Not follow the herd?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Don't see why they can't go off and sort a deal, present to the county and then see if we still like the idea of leaving or not...

Don't understand why this seems to freak leave voters out so much - if they are that confident that leaving is such a wonderful idea then further detail should just help their cause.

Had it been done BEFORE the vote then there'd be nothing for both sides to have a crib about. People had the choice of in or out and voted accordingly.

 

[Joey66]

Don't see why they can't go off and sort a deal, present to the county and then see if we still like the idea of leaving or not...

Don't understand why this seems to freak leave voters out so much - if they are that confident that leaving is such a wonderful idea then further detail should just help their cause.

You do not tell in advance your poker hand?

 

[orchard]

You do not tell in advance your poker hand?

Nor if one's deceitful or incompetent.

 

[Joey66]

Nor if one's deceitful or incompetent.

getting a massive Nissan deal is not incompetent!

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

getting a massive Nissan deal is not incompetent!

One of many yet to be done, Giuseppe. Good news as it is, it's the tip of a massive iceberg. Let's not get complacent

 

[orchard]

getting a massive Nissan deal is not incompetent!

How do you know?

 

[Joey66]

How do you know?

Just ask the Sunderland area!

 

[tsubaki]

See, you can't make statements like that without quantifying it. For me, economics is but part of the equation, but our economy has undoubtedly benefited by the additional labour it has had access to, and the treasury has certainly benefited too. There is also the enormous cultural benefits of having such a diverse melting pot. There's a reason London is regularly voted as the greatest city on Earth, and it isn't because of the Cockney's.

Capital has benefited, but it is hard to see how the rest of us have.

A study by the LSE into the average wage and living standards showed that since a point around 2005 (which coincides with the main burst of EU migration that occurred from 2004 onwards) average wages first plateaued and then sank as the 2008 recession hit:

What is more, wages have not recovered (as they have after previous recessions) because business still has access to a large pool of cheap labour that is willing to accept terms and conditions that British workers of a generation ago (or even this generation, if they were ever offered a choice) would never have accepted. On average people are earning 10% less than they were in 2008; this is at a time when executive pay has gone up by at least 20% and house prices by around 10-15%. What is more, the situation at the very bottom is even worse - there is massive pressure on available social housing (especially in the south east) and the rise of agency labour / the gig economy is removing much of the support network around those people, hence all the food banks and personal indebtedness (average non-mortgage household debt is up around 30% since 2011).

None of it is the migrants fault, of course, but the way it is being done benefits no-one (ironically apart from workers in Poland, where employers have had to put up their wages to compete). People calling for things to continue as they are should be greeted with the deepest suspicion.

 

[bring back the catt]

Heaven forbid one should have principles and not follow the herd.

"Heaven Forbid" indeed.
Is that were you are taking your stance from? The moral high ground?
No-body could really be offended by you having principals, but to call names to those who don't share your views is being just too self- righteous. I have been assured that God loves the righteous, but the self- righteous are really only loved by themselves. To regard those who do not share your viewpoint as idiots does you no favours whatsoever. Oops, now I have started name calling. Bad Catt. Down.
To describe those who appear patriotic as 'scoundrels' appears biased as it only seems to apply to the Brits. Oh dear, I've used the abbreviation, which is offensive and racist is it not. Bad, bad Catt.
To describe those who disagree with you as 'dolts' is being elitist in the extreme. Again I have done it. Name calling those who name call. Surely Catt can sink no lower. Bad Catt. Basket.
To call those born on the "rock" and have concern for it to be regarded as 'low' with 'poisonous minds' and must 'fail' is disgraceful.
Catt, you have gone too far this time. Catt must bow to the fact others may have an opinion, but to disagree will leave you open to abuse, and you must accept it.
There, it's not difficult to acknowledge others may have a different opinion to ones-self, but that does not give the right to demean them and call them names. Agreeing to differ. Acknowledging another persons viewpoint, even if not agreeing with it, is mature. Name calling isn't. A cross fertilisation of ideas is a healthy sign of a debate on a sound basis and can sometimes lead to a compromise.
Catt, that is your final warning. No more intimating frailties of your fellow countryman.
I was led to believe it was the 'leave' voters who were the racists and bigots and called the names. To wish failure on the country where you abide is shameful and would almost be regarded as treasonable should it have been written by a Brexit should the MAJORITY vote have been reversed.
For the record, I am a socialist, but with a social conscience. I have no issue with gender, colour, religion, nationalism, political stance, favoured football team, type of soap they use etc; providing they are a good person.
I also believe others have a right to differ with me, on any subject, providing they show reciprocal respect.
I believe that whilst democracy has it's many flaws, it is still the best form of government, and democracy showed the 'leave' vote to be the majority. Whether I agree with it or not, I WANT IT TO SUCCEED.

Heaven forbid one should have principles.

Bad Catt, you're doing it again.
To call me a dolt, or to infer I am an idiot low-life, proves they have not opened their mind to another persons ideas, and have no idea about me in any shape or form. For 'me', read, anybody with a differing view to you.
Lastly, I am of Hungarian origin and not of this "rock", but I will hold and honour the traditions of this Unite Kingdom, and thank all those who made sacrifices, as I will to those who continue to do so, so that I can live a harmonious existence.
Catt has concluded, and stresses Catt doesn't desire war, just respect for freely thinking differently. God forbid I should follow the herd.

 

[orchard]

Just ask the Sunderland area!

They, like you, are ignorant of the details. These may affect other areas of industry, and over-burden the taxpayer/divert other funds.

Are you going to praise them for still having oxygen next?

 

[Joey66]

They, like you, are ignorant of the details. These may affect other areas of industry, and over-burden the taxpayer/divert other funds.

Are you going to praise them for still having oxygen next?

Stop being silly, or are you a WUM

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Does your argument also apply to other nationalities in their own countries? Scottish, Welsh and Irish people? Also to Spanish, Ukraine or Bosnians? What about Japanese, Saudis, (native) South Africans, Mexicans and Swedish?

Are they all dolts who you hold in the lowest regard if they believe they have special privilege over foreign nationals in their own lands? Is their thinking poisonous?

Yes, I think so. People are human beings first and foremost. What are wars if not conflicts between people who think their nation/religion/race are better than another? Are you telling me you had some hand in where you were born?

I'm not sure why I'm surprised you don't know? Not like you've never endorsed the work for your dole mantra before, is it? Take a look at the post I replied to when I gave that answer.

I'll give you a clue....'Companies this, companies that...'

Pete asked what link there was between free movement and free trade. Allowing people to move and work where they want is a key part of that. I'm not really sure where the controversy is?

UK govt plans to stop agencies recruiting exclusively from abroad

http://www.clarkslegal.com/Legal_Up...p_temp_agencies_recruiting_exclusively_abroad

Job snobs...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/12/poundland-legal-challenge-cait-reilly-interview


Need I show more Bruce? I could give you more examples if you want...And, at one point or another in either this, or other threads, you've sympathised with the rhetoric, or openly endorsed all of these idealogies policies. However, I just can't be arsed getting to the stage where I have to rummage through the vaults, but those who can remember will back me up on this.

Ok, I'm discounting the Daily Mail because it's the Daily Mail. The second one is a consultation (has it had a result?), and one that I don't personally agree with. There are rules in this country around pay and conditions. The nationality of the worker is irrelevant, just as where a job was advertised is. As it is, the article you link to uses exactly the same kind of rhetoric, it doesn't say anything about the scale of this issue, what industries it occurs in. Nothing. It's tabloid stuff.

Likewise with the Guardian piece. It's one person. Are we to decide policy on the anecdote of one person? The following post by @tsubaki at least shows an attempt to properly study an issue.

It's perhaps worth noting that most developed economies have what's known as a globalisation fund to support people and communities that have seen jobs lost as a result of globalisation. Whilst members of the EU we had access to the sizeable fund but have deliberately chosen not to use it in preference to our own fund (taking back control innit). Great, except a recent freedom of information request revealed that fund had £2.5 million in it last year. Just goes to show how seriously the government give a damn. Dem foreigners though.

Capital has benefited, but it is hard to see how the rest of us have.

A study by the LSE into the average wage and living standards showed that since a point around 2005 (which coincides with the main burst of EU migration that occurred from 2004 onwards) average wages first plateaued and then sank as the 2008 recession hit:

What is more, wages have not recovered (as they have after previous recessions) because business still has access to a large pool of cheap labour that is willing to accept terms and conditions that British workers of a generation ago (or even this generation, if they were ever offered a choice) would never have accepted. On average people are earning 10% less than they were in 2008; this is at a time when executive pay has gone up by at least 20% and house prices by around 10-15%. What is more, the situation at the very bottom is even worse - there is massive pressure on available social housing (especially in the south east) and the rise of agency labour / the gig economy is removing much of the support network around those people, hence all the food banks and personal indebtedness (average non-mortgage household debt is up around 30% since 2011).

None of it is the migrants fault, of course, but the way it is being done benefits no-one (ironically apart from workers in Poland, where employers have had to put up their wages to compete). People calling for things to continue as they are should be greeted with the deepest suspicion.

That is interesting, but I feel it does conflate correlation with causation. There are many things that have happened since 2008 that have influenced wages. How did they determine that it was the result of migration? Indeed, another LSE study shows that despite migration rising, the wages (and employment levels) of British workers has been rising at the same time - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

This same study even finds that towns with a high influx of migrant workers does not see any growth in unemployment for native workers, even in low skilled areas. There is some evidence that migrants often accept lower wages than natives, but this is often in areas such as health and social care where costs are incredibly tight, so it's by no means guaranteed that a migrant leaving will mean a job for a native person. If it does, then we'll probably see costlier care homes and so on as a result, that's assuming that it doesn't result in higher automation.

There, it's not difficult to acknowledge others may have a different opinion to ones-self, but that does not give the right to demean them and call them names. Agreeing to differ. Acknowledging another persons viewpoint, even if not agreeing with it, is mature. Name calling isn't. A cross fertilisation of ideas is a healthy sign of a debate on a sound basis and can sometimes lead to a compromise.
Catt, that is your final warning. No more intimating frailties of your fellow countryman.
I was led to believe it was the 'leave' voters who were the racists and bigots and called the names. To wish failure on the country where you abide is shameful and would almost be regarded as treasonable should it have been written by a Brexit should the MAJORITY vote have been reversed.

Very good As Oscar Wilde once said, selfishness isn't living how one wishes to live, it's asking others to live how you wish to live. If someone wishes to be a racist simpleton in their own time then frankly that's their choice entirely. When those people dictate government policy for everyone else however...

As for failure, a country can't fail because it's a legal entity, no more. If you're of Hungarian descent then you're only too well aware of how borders have changed so frequently in the past 100 years. Yes, I wish this notion of Brexit and the awful, populist undercurrent that is sweeping the western world at the moment fails and fails miserably. Again, I'm sure you're only too well aware of rhetoric of Orban and his delightful tactic of peppering the border with pigs heads. I think he is rather fond of what Brexit represents too. Charming man.