Current Affairs EU In or Out

[NilSatisOptimum]

As I've said before, it seems that the government struck a deal with the plant in Wrexham to only produce the AZ vaccine for them. It just seems bizarre given the crucial importance of this that a company would have a single point of failure. The car industry are perhaps among the more sophisticated from a logistical perspective and they have multiple suppliers for each part for that very reason.

It was ferocious reaction by the EU and suspect strongly with good cause...We've not heard the last of it.
If this was just the EU being unreasonable I would have expected a very public BIden to have thrown his voice in support of his beloved Ireland pretty quickly and against these measures.

 

[random]

The car industry are perhaps among the more sophisticated from a logistical perspective and they have multiple suppliers for each part for that very reason.

not in my experience they dont

 

[mill]

Erm... no.

The UK has been one of the worst countries in the world at responding to this pandemic, because of a piss-poor government. It'd take a dyed-in-the-wool idiot Tory to really deny otherwise; the response has been a joke, right up there alongside Bolsonaro in Brazil and Trump.

However... they've nailed the vaccine acquisition and rollout. Absolutely, provably nailed it.

It's not a diversion to just acknowledge when things are done right. It seems impossible for people to just move from their entrenched positions on any given subject - you can honestly be a Tory and say they screwed up the pandemic response. You can be pro-EU and say the Tories got the vaccines right. It's not betraying your core beliefs to just acknowledge the obvious.

Good post. This is where I’m at.

Their response to the pandemic was unforgivable and anyone who suggests otherwise is just plain wrong.

however, the vaccine rollout has been excellent. No complaints at all there.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Good post. This is where I’m at.

Their response to the pandemic was unforgivable and anyone who suggests otherwise is just plain wrong.

however, the vaccine rollout has been excellent. No complaints at all there.

The vaccine roll has has been left to state, Tory Government have not let their normal cronies into in on the vaccine roll out, as they did with PPE Track and Trace.

Don't think they should be congratulated for letting the NHS Armed Forces and Councils actually do what they are supposed to do, we all pay them/me to do.

How the government have precured these vaccines is separate.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

not in my experience they dont

It's something Toyota tells me they specifically aim for.

 

[mill]

The vaccine roll has has been left to state, Tory Government have not let their normal cronies into in on the vaccine roll out, as they did with PPE Track and Trace.

Don't think they should be congratulated for letting the NHS Armed Forces and Councils actually do what they are supposed to do, we all pay them/me to do.

How the government have precured these vaccines is separate.

The government are ultimately responsible for both of those things.

You can blame or celebrate the players or the manager for things.

What you can’t do is only celebrate the players when a team wins but then only blame the manager when things go wrong.

If a team wins, it’s not solely down to the players.*


*Unless you are man United.

 

[random]

It's something Toyota tells me they specifically aim for.

thats a far cry from your above statement though.

Nearly all tier one parts for manufacturers are made by specific suppliers and not multiple ones.

 

[Tubey]

Well that's not true I'm afraid. As you can see from the graphic below, there are 27 vaccine sites across Europe that produce 1.7 billion vaccines per year. The capacity is there, but for some reason AZ decided to put all of their eggs into one basket, which has subsequently failed. Given the importance of this issue and the government support to help ensure stable supplies, does that sound like "best effort" to you?

Yes actually, for several reasons. One, commercial viability - while "best efforts" would in theory be buying up all those 27 sites and pumping out billions of AZ vaccine, given they didn't know it would actually be viable as a product until a month ago, it would have been reckless to do so and, obviously, not doable anyway for reason two; those sites still produce other vaccines. The flu vaccine etc. don't just stop happening. Which leads to point number three - of those 27 sites, it says quite clearly that includes packaging sites. There's dozens of vaccines in development, taking up contracts with dozens of sites.

Four, there's precedent that this is the standard - Pfizer have a facility in Puurs, Belgium that was hit with production issues and had to slow down. A second factory doesn't come online until mid-February in Marburg, Germany for them. So there's no evidence that AZ are doing anything below what is an industry standard effort.

Five, AZ have a manufacturing supply chain worldwide for this. It is standard practice to have one/two factories for millions of doses, as seen below.



The same issue could arise in any of them. To quote the Guardian:

Making vaccines is not like building houses, where you can add a few more bricks to a wall if it’s too short, they say. This is a biological process and it’s not possible to be certain how much vaccine is going to be made once production is under way. The yield varies.

When talking about "best efforts", this variation is important.

The EU would have to prove AZ did something radically negligent as opposed to other vaccine companies. As I said yesterday, good luck to them with that, as I can see basically nothing, as what happened to AZ could easily have happened to Pfizer, Moderna et al.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

The government are ultimately responsible for both of those things.

You can blame or celebrate the players or the manager for things.

What you can’t do is only celebrate the players when a team wins but then only blame the manager when things go wrong.

If a team wins, it’s not solely down to the players.*


*Unless you are man United.

The Government allowed the state to do it's job in roll out, rather than seek to make profit for its preferred cronies, I won't be doffing my cap for the minimum. I strive for much better.

* Using the current Man Utd manager is ironic, he is cronyism personified, just ask Cardiff fans!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes actually, for several reasons. One, commercial viability - while "best efforts" would in theory be buying up all those 27 sites and pumping out billions of AZ vaccine, given they didn't know it would actually be viable as a product until a month ago, it would have been reckless to do so and, obviously, not doable anyway for reason two; those sites still produce other vaccines. The flu vaccine etc. don't just stop happening. Which leads to point number three - of those 27 sites, it says quite clearly that includes packaging sites. There's dozens of vaccines in development, taking up contracts with dozens of sites.

Four, there's precedent that this is the standard - Pfizer have a facility in Puurs, Belgium that was hit with production issues and had to slow down. A second factory doesn't come online until mid-February in Marburg, Germany for them. So there's no evidence that AZ are doing anything below what is an industry standard effort.

Five, AZ have a manufacturing supply chain worldwide for this. It is standard practice to have one/two factories for millions of doses, as seen below.

View attachment 115962

The same issue could arise in any of them. To quote the Guardian:



When talking about "best efforts", this variation is important.

The EU would have to prove AZ did something radically negligent as opposed to other vaccine companies. As I said yesterday, good luck to them with that, as I can see basically nothing, as what happened to AZ could easily have happened to Pfizer, Moderna et al.

Firstly, AZ don't own any of those sites, so it would seem sensible for a contract manufacturer of vaccine to move heaven and earth to ensure that their facilities are the dog's wotsits given the volume of work coming their way. Secondly, given that they were clearly able to get a UK-based facility reasonably ship shape for the end of 2020, it's staggering that they weren't able to do likewise in mainland Europe. Or are we seriously suggesting that the UK would approve their vaccine and no other jurisdiction in the world would? Or that they only started doing meaningful work once the vaccine was approved, in which case the three months grace period they supposedly used to iron out the kinks in the UK-based facility while not doing anything in their Belgian facility would be moot?

It's also highly doubtful that applying what would be "best effort" in ordinary times is considered "best effort" in these most extra-ordinary of times. They're not comparable, as you would hope AZ themselves realised when they received such enormous orders in such a short period of time. Execting what had previously been fine to apply here is nonsense, and that has been proven to be so as their best effort clearly failed on a massive scale.

 

[Jebus_lives]

It's something Toyota tells me they specifically aim for.

Hard to imagine that an industry so reliant on JIT supply might not have multiple suppliers and replication of supply chain in the event of a disruption.

 

[Tubey]

Firstly, AZ don't own any of those sites, so it would seem sensible for a contract manufacturer of vaccine to move heaven and earth to ensure that their facilities are the dog's wotsits given the volume of work coming their way. Secondly, given that they were clearly able to get a UK-based facility reasonably ship shape for the end of 2020, it's staggering that they weren't able to do likewise in mainland Europe. Or are we seriously suggesting that the UK would approve their vaccine and no other jurisdiction in the world would? Or that they only started doing meaningful work once the vaccine was approved, in which case the three months grace period they supposedly used to iron out the kinks in the UK-based facility while not doing anything in their Belgian facility would be moot?

It's also highly doubtful that applying what would be "best effort" in ordinary times is considered "best effort" in these most extra-ordinary of times. They're not comparable, as you would hope AZ themselves realised when they received such enormous orders in such a short period of time. Execting what had previously been fine to apply here is nonsense, and that has been proven to be so as their best effort clearly failed on a massive scale.

UK ordered three months earlier, actually had similar issues.

Output of Oxford-AstraZeneca doses held up

Production setback as first mass vaccination campaign gets under way

www.ft.com

The UK government’s vaccines task force acknowledged on Monday that just 4m doses of the vaccine developed by Oxford university and AstraZeneca would be delivered this year, imported from the Netherlands and Germany. Earlier in the year, the task force had said it envisaged production of 30m doses in the UK by year-end.

Pfizer the same. We took a 50%-60% hit on initial delivery supplies.

The sole difference is we weren't as impacted because they had more time to iron them out, because we ordered earlier. It really is as simple as that. 80% of the UK vaccines are made in the UK, the European facilities went online later due to it being a later order. Expecting them to mass produce a product which isn't proven to be commercially viable just to meet an advance order that would be null and void if it doesn't work is, obviously, unreasonable. And again:

This is a biological process and it’s not possible to be certain how much vaccine is going to be made once production is under way. The yield varies.

This could very easily affect the UK in a few months. If those factories have a reduced yield in the UK, then we'll get less doses. The difference, of course, is that as time goes on more options become available and supply increases to reach demand, which hasn't happened yet. The EU were too slow due to bureaucracy and process, and - to be blunt - simply unlucky.

By your definition, if AZ failed in their "best efforts" by having only a limited number of facilities and having issues, then Pfizer haven't made best efforts either - nobody has. You conveniently skirt around that fact.

Your position is reactionary to failure, not one of logic. It's understandable, but while AZ have screwed up, it's an understandable screw up. In a 'normal' time, it'd be brushed over, nobody would care, there'd be an understanding of issues with live products and the order would be met eventually. We aren't living in a 'normal' time, so everything is magnified.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Wonder if the EU will move to vote no confidence in VDL?

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Gives me a wry smile all this, UK Government did exactly the same with the Internal Market Bill, yet that was applauded by Brexiteers on here. Nobody has said, as far as I've seen, that what the EU have done or was going to do is a good thing. So Brexiteers piling in on the EU is high on the hypocrisy. Do as I say not what we do Tory narrative, blah blah.

 

[Billy Dean]

Wonder if the EU will move to vote no confidence in VDL?

Is that being touted?