Current Affairs EU In or Out

[hktoffee]

That's a silly argument Pete. The government extended an invite to all 3 million citizens of Hong Kong recently, and aside from the bizarre lack of any objection to that from Farage and his far-right drones (why do you think that might be?), the very notion that all 3 million are going to arrive at Heathrow is ridiculous.

Regarding your second point, practically all terrorist attacks or potential attacks on British soil have come from British nationals.

Homegrown Islamist extremists still UK’s biggest threat, says MI5 chief

Andrew Parker reveals 80% of thwarted terror attacks involved individuals ‘inspired by Isis’

www.ft.com

So no, I'm not at all worried about criminals coming here, especially as all of the evidence suggests that immigrants are less criminally inclined than natives.

Won’t happen. 50k maybe.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Won’t happen. 50k maybe.

And even then, they will probably have secondary status to "actual" UK citizens. Lovely lot though we are.

 

[roydo]

And even then, they will probably have secondary status to "actual" UK citizens. Lovely lot though we are.

I know you have a decent grasp of the immigration/status stuff, and this occurred to me today.

If you are say French, have lived here for 10 years, and have a business here, do you have to jump through some hoops, or has the "we will honour existing EU folk already here" thing gone south?

Same for thousands of non EU, (mainly NHS) staff.

 

[hktoffee]

And even then, they will probably have secondary status to "actual" UK citizens. Lovely lot though we are.

Mate let me elaborate a bit. Out of the 3m people 10% currently hold that travel document. Let’s assume they want to move. Fact is for those who have the ability to move are middle-class who are professionals and have financials muscles so there is a variety of places they would go to such as Canada. In addition, there should be criterias for them to meet say proof of finance etc. There’s no free lunch afterall. If the arrival of these people aren’t beneficial nor contribute to the overall economy then they wouldn’t be here.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I know you have a decent grasp of the immigration/status stuff, and this occurred to me today.

If you are say French, have lived here for 10 years, and have a business here, do you have to jump through some hoops, or has the "we will honour existing EU folk already here" thing gone south?

Same for thousands of non EU, (mainly NHS) staff.

Suffice to say, it's complex mate. As has been well documented, there's no physical evidence that any EU citizen has indefinite leave to remain, which has a number of problems. Firstly, it requires you to trust this government not to pull the rug from under people, which frankly, you'd have to be pretty naive to do that. Secondly, since the "hostile environment" garbage has been brought in, the act of policing borders has been devolved to ordinary folk, whether that's employers, landlords, NHS workers or schools. There are hefty fines in place for housing or employing someone with no legal right to be here, with these informal border agents required to keep documentation to prove everything is above board. That's created the unfortunate situation whereby people have been discriminated against by landlords, for instance, who would rather not take chances with someone with a funny name or the wrong colour skin just in case they have fake documents and they're wanged with a massive fine. This despite them being either British citizens or people with the appropriate rights.

Mate let me elaborate a bit. Out of the 3m people 10% currently hold that travel document. Let’s assume they want to move. Fact is for those who have the ability to move are middle-class who are professionals and have financials muscles so there is a variety of places they would go to such as Canada. In addition, there should be criterias for them to meet say proof of finance etc. There’s no free lunch afterall. If the arrival of these people aren’t beneficial nor contribute to the overall economy then they wouldn’t be here.

I was referring specifically to the 1981 legislation that gave us this lovely act that allows someone to be British but not really British (mainly if you're not white).

British Overseas citizen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[roydo]

Suffice to say, it's complex mate. As has been well documented, there's no physical evidence that any EU citizen has indefinite leave to remain, which has a number of problems. Firstly, it requires you to trust this government not to pull the rug from under people, which frankly, you'd have to be pretty naive to do that. Secondly, since the "hostile environment" garbage has been brought in, the act of policing borders has been devolved to ordinary folk, whether that's employers, landlords, NHS workers or schools. There are hefty fines in place for housing or employing someone with no legal right to be here, with these informal border agents required to keep documentation to prove everything is above board. That's created the unfortunate situation whereby people have been discriminated against by landlords, for instance, who would rather not take chances with someone with a funny name or the wrong colour skin just in case they have fake documents and they're wanged with a massive fine. This despite them being either British citizens or people with the appropriate rights.



I was referring specifically to the 1981 legislation that gave us this lovely act that allows someone to be British but not really British (mainly if you're not white).

British Overseas citizen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thats a mess isnt it?

Kinel.

 

[hktoffee]

Suffice to say, it's complex mate. As has been well documented, there's no physical evidence that any EU citizen has indefinite leave to remain, which has a number of problems. Firstly, it requires you to trust this government not to pull the rug from under people, which frankly, you'd have to be pretty naive to do that. Secondly, since the "hostile environment" garbage has been brought in, the act of policing borders has been devolved to ordinary folk, whether that's employers, landlords, NHS workers or schools. There are hefty fines in place for housing or employing someone with no legal right to be here, with these informal border agents required to keep documentation to prove everything is above board. That's created the unfortunate situation whereby people have been discriminated against by landlords, for instance, who would rather not take chances with someone with a funny name or the wrong colour skin just in case they have fake documents and they're wanged with a massive fine. This despite them being either British citizens or people with the appropriate rights.



I was referring specifically to the 1981 legislation that gave us this lovely act that allows someone to be British but not really British (mainly if you're not white).

British Overseas citizen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway, what I was trying to point out is that the 3m number is a pipe dream. That’s all.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thats a mess isnt it?

Kinel.

Will be even worse if we continue listening to that Australian dinosaur. The refugee processing facilities they dump people to in Papua New Guinea are dreadful as the people there generally don't have any of the human rights they would have in most western countries, and they can often be stuck there for indeterminate periods of time, and even if they are eventually granted asylum, they're given citizenship of Papua New Guinea rather than Australia. Put stuff like that alongside the way America polices its southern border (and to be fair, the EU camps on the Greek islands) and it really is a grim time right now.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Anyway, what I was trying to point out is that the 3m number is a pipe dream. That’s all.

Well no, quite.

 

[Bishop Thumpety-Thump]

Will be even worse if we continue listening to that Australian dinosaur. The refugee processing facilities they dump people to in Papua New Guinea are dreadful as the people there generally don't have any of the human rights they would have in most western countries, and they can often be stuck there for indeterminate periods of time, and even if they are eventually granted asylum, they're given citizenship of Papua New Guinea rather than Australia. Put stuff like that alongside the way America polices its southern border (and to be fair, the EU camps on the Greek islands) and it really is a grim time right now.

That dinosaur (like many other Australian PMs) was actually born in the UK. Absolutely dreadful person. Campaigned for many years on an anti-immigrant platform, despite being one himself. Ridiculous attitude, much like Patel's is now.

If you want to have a good laugh at the melt, here's a clip of his greatest hits from a few years ago. His 'faith' based approach to immigration includes the quote, 'Jesus knew that there was a place for everything...and it's not everyone's place to come to Australia.' Quite how he's got his latest job is well beyond me.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

Is it decision day on Brexit talks – and what is still to be resolved?

Boris Johnson said 15 October was the deadline, but he might not walk away just yet

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thats a mess isnt it?

Kinel.

It's perhaps always worth remembering that the "hostile environment" affects everyone. For instance I was just sent this paper that talks about how German academics working here are looking to leave due to the unwelcome atmosphere since Brexit.

https://www.wu.ac.at/fileadmin/wu/h/press/Forschung/ROM/Mohr_Brexit_working_paper_January_2020.pdf

These are the kind of people I'm sure even most Brexiters would accept the country would want to attract, but funnily enough, when they see how the government treats foreigners, they're not so keen either.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Open borders isn't about that and never has been. It's about allowing foreigners to live with the same freedoms in a country as native-born citizens, which is how things have been for the vast majority of humanity's existence.

The very notion of "freedoms" is a fairly new thing. It implies a certain degree of egalitarianism that is notably absent from most of Western history.

If we're talking Roman citizens, or Spartans vs. Helots, we're having a conversation about rights and privileges. The notion that the Helots should expect freedoms derived from natural law would have been alien to those cultures. That idea dates to Locke's era.

It's worth noting that in both cases, the lower classes would not have been free to travel because they would have been property. Restrictions on foreigners and travel vary across time and space; in Tokugawa-era Japan, for instance, there was a near-absolute prohibition.

 

[peteblue]

It's perhaps always worth remembering that the "hostile environment" affects everyone. For instance I was just sent this paper that talks about how German academics working here are looking to leave due to the unwelcome atmosphere since Brexit.

https://www.wu.ac.at/fileadmin/wu/h/press/Forschung/ROM/Mohr_Brexit_working_paper_January_2020.pdf

These are the kind of people I'm sure even most Brexiters would accept the country would want to attract, but funnily enough, when they see how the government treats foreigners, they're not so keen either.

TBH Bruce it’s just like every job satisfaction report I’ve ever seen, except it was completed by nationals and not ex pats.

I also thought the tone of the paper was geared towards finding a way of linking a perceived change in attitude towards foreigners by community and government without putting up any proof of this. It was a loaded paper, with probably more time and effort put into compiling references than into actual analysis. But that’s just my view....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

TBH Bruce it’s just like every job satisfaction report I’ve ever seen, except it was completed by nationals and not ex pats.

I also thought the tone of the paper was geared towards finding a way of linking a perceived change in attitude towards foreigners by community and government without putting up any proof of this. It was a loaded paper, with probably more time and effort put into compiling references than into actual analysis. But that’s just my view....

It's sadly not a surprising view Pete as you've done nothing but support the government line for years, even as they descend further down the rabbit hole. Meanwhile, a growing number of the "best and the brightest" decide that a country that is doing its damndest to make it hard for them is not where they want to be. After all, they often have their pick of any country in the world, so why would they choose here? What has this government done to make people feel welcome over the past 10 years?