Current Affairs EU In or Out

[random]

I raised this with May and her response that the UK negotiating team could 'fight their corner' was entirely unconvincing.

I read somewhere that in (maybe) the 1st negotiation meeting the EU side went in with folders and documents galore, prepared for any eventuality it seemed. The UK side went in with a pen, blank pad and a blank look.

Sounds about right then.

 

[PSB1]

A word in defence of Cameron (not someone I hugely admire): Matthew Goodwin relates that it was only the Tories who took serious note of the results of polling between 2001 and 2015 which showeds the drift of the Working Class away from Labour and the increasing dissatisfaction in response to wide questions such as, "In general how do you feel about your life / area / country".

Cameron might argue that the insights gained from that bank of evidence led him to believe that only a referendum would serve to lance the boil and that his misjudgment arose from the fact that the polling, if anything, underestimated dissatisfaction and that the E U (arrogantly, in my view) gave him nothing significant to help the Remain cause.

But rather than dissect the past, I'm interested to see who, if anyone, with passionate belief in the E U will commit themselves to the slog of organisation and campaigning on the issue.

 

[peteblue]

This what I dont think leavers get about many remainers; I dont support the EU, and I think a lot of the grief they get is valid. The accounts for one.

But on balance, the arrangement we have, or had, within the EU was mutually a good one. On balance. Not perfect, but what is?

Why I voted to remain was pretty much cos of that, plus, I didnt buy the codswallop that was spouted by some pretty awful people.

We can still have a relationship with the Eu once they get over trying to punish the U.K. for daring to leave......

 

[peteblue]

I answered it with a link to full details about every project funded in Luxembourg, so you have the power to answer it yourself. Of course, you don't really want to answer it, as that would require doing some work to question your assumptions.

You did indeed provide an answer Bruce, and I apologise for not mentioning it, but it didn’t really get into the politics of why Luxembourg was And continues to be treated so favourably....it’s a stitch up.......

 

[peteblue]

I read somewhere that in (maybe) the 1st negotiation meeting the EU side went in with folders and documents galore, prepared for any eventuality it seemed. The UK side went in with a pen, blank pad and a blank look.

Sounds about right then.

It‘s a cultural thing. Germans etc go to a meeting to agree some pre prepared outcome. British people go to a meeting to discuss opportunities and explore potential outcomes. This is cultural 101 in dealing with Europe.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You did indeed provide an answer Bruce, and I apologise for not mentioning it, but it didn’t really get into the politics of why Luxembourg was And continues to be treated so favourably....it’s a stitch up.......

You'll have to forgive me Pete, but I provided you with data on the projects funded in Luxembourg, and neither of us shared any insights into any political machinations at play. So in the absence of evidence, you're simply assuming that there is a stitch up. Maybe that's betraying your base prejudices?

 

[roydo]

We can still have a relationship with the Eu once they get over trying to punish the U.K. for daring to leave......

So still believing the codswallop. Triffic.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Fear of immigrants was far more of a factor (caveat: not all those who voted to leave are racists)....

Have asked many times, here and other forums, get me a link that Far right organization campaigned for the UK to remain members of the EU... Years on never seen any evidence of one.

Incidentally, from mid 90s to round 2004, was member of the Brexit party delivered leaflets blah blah in Hammonds back yard (Runnymede and Weybridge).
Brexit was a liberal endeavor back then, however, soon scooted once racist started to enter... You let nationalistic dogs off the leash they will want their flesh, always do, having such political bedfellows is really not something to be proud.

The Banks and financial institutions that almost ruined the country and could not believe their luck with Brexit crowd, useful idiots let them off the hook, to rinse and repeat...

 

[Jebus_lives]

I read somewhere that in (maybe) the 1st negotiation meeting the EU side went in with folders and documents galore, prepared for any eventuality it seemed. The UK side went in with a pen, blank pad and a blank look.

Sounds about right then.

You'll hear that this is because the UK are open about negotiations and look to create dialogue rather than negotiate finer points of pre defined discussions, when actually it's because we had a negotiating team led by a reckless bluffer overly confident is his abilities and the strength of the UK negotiating position.

 

[peteblue]

You'll have to forgive me Pete, but I provided you with data on the projects funded in Luxembourg, and neither of us shared any insights into any political machinations at play. So in the absence of evidence, you're simply assuming that there is a stitch up. Maybe that's betraying your base prejudices?

No Bruce, I asked a question about why a small rich country such as Luxembourg is receiving more money from the EU than larger and poorer countries. I believe it’s down to the politics and the nationality of the last Commission president. You obviously don’t, but merely providing a list of the projects that the money is spent on adds nothing to the question of Why ?.....

 

[Jebus_lives]

No Bruce, I asked a question about why a small rich country such as Luxembourg is receiving more money from the EU than larger and poorer countries. I believe it’s down to the politics and the nationality of the last Commission president. You obviously don’t, but merely providing a list of the projects that the money is spent on adds nothing to the question of Why ?.....

At least he's given you some actual detail to explore (not that you will) rather than simply stating his belief.

It also gives you opportunity to check your facts about Luxembourg and how much money it receives and what for, which may give you some indication as to the why (not that you'll actually check). You clearly haven't checked any of this information yourself, so what are you basing your opinion on?

You can also check what other countries you list are receiving and what it is being spent on and how it is calculated (but you won't bother).

 

[random]

Fear of immigrants was far more of a factor (caveat: not all those who voted to leave are racists)....

according to figures for this in the YouGov survey Feb 2020 the figure is less than 50% for local impact of immigration

figures:

45% of leave voters felt immigration had a negative effect in their local area
13% of leave voters felt immigration had a positive effect in their local area
37% of leave voters felt immigration had a negligible effect in their local area

However I noted that this does jump up when the question is asked about the whole of the UK

20% of leave voters viewed immigration as a positive impact on the UK as a whole
60% of leave voters viewed immigration as a negative impact on the UK as a whole

 

[roydo]

according to figures for this in the YouGov survey Feb 2020 the figure is less than 50% for local impact of immigration

figures:

45% of leave voters felt immigration had a negative effect in their local area
13% of leave voters felt immigration had a positive effect in their local area
37% of leave voters felt immigration had a negligible effect in their local area

However I noted that this does jump up when the question is asked about the whole of the UK

20% of leave voters viewed immigration as a positive impact on the UK as a whole
60% of leave voters viewed immigration as a negative impact on the UK as a whole

@Bruce Wayne

Will leave you to this one mate.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

@Bruce Wayne

Will leave you to this one mate.

It's noticeable that in a few studies, attitude towards immigration softened after the Brexit vote, and has softened again after Covid, such that very few regard it as an issue any more. Whether that's remained so after Farage and the Tories tried to stoke up some anger I don't know.

 

[roydo]

It's noticeable that in a few studies, attitude towards immigration softened after the Brexit vote, and has softened again after Covid, such that very few regard it as an issue any more. Whether that's remained so after Farage and the Tories tried to stoke up some anger I don't know.

Probably quite a few saw them nasty immigrants caring for their loved ones in hospital.

It was more those stats about the positive impact immigrants, EU and no EU, have on UK Plc.